Today's Seattle Times reports on Thursday night's town hall meeting with King County Elections Director Dean Logan. As noted in the article, I challenged Logan's assertion that 1,800 ballots were miscounted, and pointed out that that was only the net of some precincts with more than 2,600 voterless ballots and other precincts with more than 800 ballotless voters. [The Times reported the 2,600 number, but missed my point about the 800 ballotless voters]. Logan did not dispute my numbers. Nor did he dispute my statement that this was "an outsized discrepancy compared to what other counties are seeing".
I asked Logan to acknowledge that whether this discrepancy is caused by error or something else, it's simply so much larger than the difference in the candidates' vote totals that maybe we should just say the election wasn't good enough in this particular case for us to have to simply accept the result. He asserted that it's the courts' job, not his, to determine whether there were too many errors. He also insisted that he never said that we should just accept the result. Still, he'd be doing the public (and his own reputation) a real service if he had gotten out in front of the irregularities in his own department, declared that this size discrepancy is unacceptable, announced an internal investigation and tossed overboard the deadwood that is directly responsible for the problems.
After the formal Q&A I introduced myself and commended him for meeting the public and answering all the criticism that's leveled against him and his office. He asked jokingly if I recognized him without the beret, apparently referring to this picture.
I asked him about the large number of voters registered with private mailbox residences. He confirmed that the Elections Office used to flag these addresses but they stopped doing so when they migrated the records to a new computer system. He also insisted that he has no authority under the law to cancel and refuse registrations even if the registrant lists an improper address. Challenging a registration can only be done by another voter, he explained, or by the county prosecutor. His authority is limited to reporting suspicious registrations to the prosecutor's office. I then asked if his office knew that private mailbox residences are improper (and he didn't dispute that they are), why couldn't he just refer all such registrations to the prosecutor for a challenge? He agreed that would be a reasonable thing to do in the future.
But then why hasn't he been doing this for the last two years? With this and other similar incidents, it seems the policy of King County Elections, whether explicit or implicit, is to make it as easy as possible for anybody and their dog to register and vote, with only scant attention to ensuring the integrity of the voter rolls.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at January 28, 2005 01:10 AM | Email ThisCG Stated on her website that she had never ever raised taxes on this state. But she stated ON HER WEBSITE all the times Dino Rossi had voted for new taxes. Well my dear lying DEMOCRAPS, (and I do include many of my misguided republican reprosentatives in this who are trying now to RAISE ALL KINDS OF TAXES IN THIS STATE), OUR POCKETS ARE EMPTY! As well they are trying to killl the ability for us to have real inititives in this state, Yes Mr REED, I DO MEAN YOU! I won't vote for you again! Shame on you all! This STATE has one of the Highest taxs in the nation already, One of the Highest Unemployment rates in this nation due to the Democrats rule. Ron Sims and DOW Constipation have Ticked OFF so many people all over King County royally with their CAO Land stealing and every other spend happy scenerio they can dream up, they deserve to be thrown out! And many of the republicans helped fight this CAO LAND STEAL in court to assure this stealing of land was allowed. SHAME ON YOU ALL! I have never never seen such a corrupt State, legislature or election, and hope the courts and recalls throw the whole bunch of you out on your heels. you are not leaders! RON AND DOW YOU ARE GONE IN THE NEXT ELECTION! CG WILL NOT LAST THROUGH THE CONTEST!
Posted by: GS on January 28, 2005 02:12 AMDon't overlook the other lead piece by David Postman either:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002163149_revote28m.html
Down a ways in the above is this little gem:
"Democratic House Speaker Frank Chopp yesterday added his voice to those opposed to having the Legislature settle the disputed election."
Anybody else sense the (D)s in the Legislature more and more wanting to avoid this hot potato and run for cover ??
Still way short of bet the ranch, but looking better all the time from my perspective.
Methow Ken
Sheesh, this isn't rocket science, you know, it's just a lot of common sense and some arithmetic!
Posted by: Kelly McGrew on January 28, 2005 05:04 AMToo bad that question wasn't asked.
Posted by: Peter Hampe on January 28, 2005 06:35 AMb. If you contest it, then "uneligible" voters will NOT be allowed to VOTE. (so they would be removed from voter roll, and not allowed to even present a provisional ballot, that could possibly be put into a machine to be counted anyway's)
c. How can you contest a Ballot by a uneligible voter, if they don't vote in the first place.
This is (in CG fashion) LUDICRIOUS... We need accountablilty in our appointed and elected officals. If the private sector ran business like KC does, they would be broke, and out of business.
Passing the Buck must stop now, and the people of this State need to stand up and let them know they are accountable for their actions.... Sorry I am ranting now....
HELP!
I really don't understand the explanation about provisional votes being counted. Can someone backtrack and help me out here?
I know they say that 348 provisional ballots were tallied in error. Now Logan says, according to the Times, "Most of the 348 provisional ballots in King County that were improperly counted at polling places Nov. 2 were cast by registered voters...".
How do they know that? In order for Logan to know this, he would have to have "empty" provisional envelopes for those voters? Does he? If so, the problem would have become apparent very shortly after the election (when provisionals were being verified). When did Logan reveal this? It was only recently, wasn't it?
Are provisional envelopes numerically sequenced in any way? Are they entered into some kind of record at the time they're submitted? How does Logan know what happened?
Sorry if I'm bringing up old issues. But I've never seen this addressed.
Posted by: jeanneB on January 28, 2005 08:05 AMMight that be because prosecution of these people would include judges and other "officials" who have not been following the rules?
And, if only a voter and a prosecutor can challenge a registration, and since the prosecutors are political animals, how are voters going to do this without open access to all of the information?
That is a built in Catch 22. In fact, it's amazing to see how many Catch 22's have been built in to our elections process. Only a voter can challenge a registration, a voter needs access to all of the database to do so, a voter can't get access, therefor can't challenge registrations, but only a voter can challenge registrations.
Also, it looks to me like Logan would like to announce that the results were not good. I bet he is being held back by the powers-that-be of his party.
Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on January 28, 2005 08:08 AMIn certain places around the state, provisional ballots were injected directly into the valid ballot pool, either the vote tabulating machines or ballot boxes, instead of in their envelopes. Once in the ballot pool, they cannot be distinguished from other ballots.
King County has been checking the empty envelopes that they have that were completed by the voter prior to receiving the provisional ballot. I have heard that in some precincts, the empty envelopes had been discarded, so the county does not have all of the envelopes. The legality of checking the envelopes after the votes were counted will have to be determined, probably in court.
The provisional envelopes are numbered, allowing the voter to check after the election to find out if their vote was counted.
I would presume that Logan's office knew about the problems election night when voting materials were returned from the polling places, including the empty provisional envelopes. The news was not made public until late December when a workers at two separate polling places released the news at a Rossi press conference. I leave to you to figure out why Logan didn't make this news public earlier.
Posted by: north clark county on January 28, 2005 08:22 AMhttp://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jan05/296952.asp
Posted by: Dan on January 28, 2005 08:27 AMSo I was happy. Then I noticed our schools were rated in the bottom 10 of the country, our roads are constantly overcrowded and I started thinking WE GET WHAT WE PAY FOR?????
The state has one of the LOWEST taxes in the country. It's pure right wing propoganda that says we have near the highest. TOTAL CROCK. Tons of data out there that proves it wrong. But folks don't want the facts....they want to PAY LESS. That's understandable...but use FACTS not overvblown, demonstrably wrong HYPE to further your agenda. And accept the consequences.
Posted by: jim on January 28, 2005 08:46 AMDean and the Democrats are playing a game of obfuscation, doublespeak, passing the buck, disinformation, and repetitive illogical statements. All I hear is "It's not my job to run a honest, fair election." Well Dean, what is your job description? Where does the buck stop?
And CG thinks this was a fair election, a model for democracy? Or was it "A model for Democrats?"
Democrats: What would you like on your political tombstone? How about "Coulda, woulda, shoulda."
R.I.P.
So. You're saying they have the empty provisional envelopes...except in cases where they DON'T have the envelopes?
Hmmm. This sounds familiar. Kind of like, "I voted for the 87 billion before.....". LOL!
Posted by: JeanneB on January 28, 2005 09:01 AMHas anybody compiled a list of quotes by Dean Logan since Election Day? It would make for interesting reading to see how many feet he has in his mouth. Maybe Brian could add them into his timeline?
Posted by: north clark county on January 28, 2005 09:10 AMJim, what do you think would be a fair tax schedule? What kind of overall percentage are we talking about?
After adding all the taxes that this state requires, including business taxes, if you think your tax payments too low, I am sure you could send in a donation.
I think taxes are too high in this state and that the state squanders a lot of money. Sorry I don't have data to support my opinion, but if I look at my paycheck I don't see a whole lot there after taxes (mostly federal, I know). But I know small business owners and all the state/county/local taxes are destroying any profits.
Standby for a state income tax (I have been saying this for a long time) because it looks like you may get your wish for higher Washington State taxes.
BTW I think that the graduated federal income tax is immoral, and a flat percentage would be more fair to everyone. And yes, I am one of those that Democrats don't think exist: a poor Republican.
Posted by: JG on January 28, 2005 09:12 AMThey are estimating the provisional figure not based on empty envelopes, but people who signed in as provisional voters.
In order to (properly) receive a provisional ballot, you still had to sign the poll book, like a regular voter. So in the many precincts that had more votes in the ballot box than voters, King County checked the provisional signatures against the provisional ballots in envelopes. In many cases they were able to figure out an estimate of how many provisional ballots went into the ballot box directly.
However, this is only an estimate, and it does not count any ballots from malcontents who did not sign into the poll book. So the current quoted number of 438 is probably far short of reality.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 09:41 AMSince you think our taxes are so low in this state, perhaps you'd like to comment on the regulations in this state?
For if you know anything at all about public policy and finance, you know that a regulation is the same as a tax. And Washington State residents face some of the highest regulatory costs in the country.
Take, for example, the CAO, or land-theft by King County. Can you explain how prohibiting rural residents from developing 65% of their land is anything other than a devaluation of their land without compensation?
I live in the city of Seattle. If there is a tree in the public easement of my property that may fall on my neighbors house, I can't go out and cut it down. I have to pay the city to get a permit to do it, even though it is on city property!! And if I leave it there and it does fall on my neighbors house, I pay the bill!!
You're completely mistaken when you talk of low taxes in this state, because you are only looking at one side of the coin. A little less myopia on your part, and you would see that between taxes and regulations, we pay well above average when compared to the other 49 states.
And my examples did not even scratch the surface of all the business regulations in this state. Try to open up a small business here, and you drown in red tape. Or just drive down to Boeing Headquarters in South Seattle and ask them. Oh, wait, my bad - you'd have to drive to CHICAGO to ask them.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 09:48 AMOne would assume that Dean is a registered voter. So does the law allow him to challenge a registration as a private citizen and voter?
Posted by: Duane on January 28, 2005 10:01 AMSo you're saying provisional voters had to sign a book specifically reserved for provisional voters? There were two "Poll Books"? One for provisionals and one for at-the-poll voters?
Or are you saying they all signed the same book, but provisionals were indicated in the one book with some kind of identifying mark?
Really my question is:
Do they have empty envelopes for those 348 provisional ballots which improperly got into the tally?
If NOT, how can Dean now assure us they were "registered" voters whose vote should be counted?
Sorry to be so slow on the uptake, but it's hard for us out-of-staters to understand how this happened.
Posted by: JeanneB on January 28, 2005 10:09 AMA lot of you like most people are in a lot of debt and are stuck in a lousy economy so you are squeezed. You don't want to blame yourselves so you blame the government. You vote for Eyman's initiatives and then complain when goverment service s like elections suffer.
Your only solution is to cut taxes even more.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 10:10 AMNever let facts get in the way of your mouth.
You spout the normal Liberal BS. Saying it's so may make you feel good but shows how dumb you are.
Washington State has the 7th highest state and local tax burden among all the states in 2004. re: Taxfoundation.org
You said, ".....I started thinking WE GET WHAT WE PAY FOR?????"
No, because of waste, fraud and abuse from the Democrat controlled government we pay a lot and don't get value for our money.
The Democrats do not want true Performance Audits to streamline and cut costs and bureaucracy. The performance audits they are talking about in Olympia would require Legislative approval for audits.
Get your head out, JIM!!!!!!!!!!
The provisional voters were supposed to sign into the poll book and be noted as provisionals.
They do not have empty envelopes for them all. The number now admitted is 437 or 438, no longer 348.
They have NO WAY of knowing the actual number, and it is impossible to know whether they were actual registered voters. Anyone who says they were is naive or lying.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 10:27 AM"race to the bottom mentality"? Sure, maybe that's why we control the White House, the Senate, the House, and the Supreme Court. Maybe that's why we control the majority of Governor's Mansion's in the country. And maybe that's why the country turns REDDER every day! Sheesh.
If we are stuck in a 'lousy economy', with Washington having relatively high unemployment rates and businesses moving out, why can't we demand more of our state and local governments?
The U.S. spends more per student on education than any country in the world, yet we're continually about #15 in educating said students.
One issue is cutting taxes, which spurs economic activity. The other issue is making the state and local governments ACCOUNTABLE for the money they receive. Do you have a problem with that?
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 10:32 AMSo Dean is either "naive or lying".
Hmmm. I'll really have to think hard about that one! LOL!
Posted by: JeanneB on January 28, 2005 10:42 AMAnd Dean Logan did state in testimony to the House Government Committee that his staff was checking the validity of the registrations of the provisional voters whose ballots were inserted directly into the ballot tabulators, at least for those that they have the empty envelopes. If you are saying that he is naive or lying, you won't get any argument from me.
Posted by: north clark county on January 28, 2005 10:46 AMThanks for the clarification. Since there's no way to know which provisional voter's ballot is which, and no way to separate them, checking the validity now is just a big case of CYA and shutting the barn door after the horses got out of Dodge.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 11:06 AMA lot of you like most people are in a lot of debt and are stuck in a lousy economy so you are squeezed. You don't want to blame yourselves so you blame the government. You vote for Eyman's initiatives and then complain when goverment service s like elections suffer."
John....I think you have some of "us" confused. I perfer to think we "R's" have common sense, and can see what the "D's" have done to this state, and will continue to do.
I am not broke or in debt, and I didnt vote for Eyman's initiatives like a good lil "R". I didnt even vote for Rossi !!!
BUT, my property rights should not be dictated by some "D" sitting in his concrete jungle in Seattle.
My goverment should be accountable for the excessive spending. (how about the 20 million Gregoire lost this state in a lawsuit filed and not appealed in a timely manner, and Pleeeeassseee dont tell me it was a staff persons error, she is ultimately responsible.)
So please dont question our mentality, when WE are all Taxpayers of this State we call Washington.
Posted by: Chris on January 28, 2005 11:10 AM"race to the bottom mentality"? Sure, maybe that's why we control the White House, the Senate, the House, and the Supreme Court. Maybe that's why we control the majority of Governor's Mansion's in the country. And maybe that's why the country turns REDDER every day! Sheesh.
Yep, redder like the WA state legislature, Montana and Colorado because the people want things to change unlike in TX where Tom DeLay wanted things to change. Huey Long anybody?
If we are stuck in a 'lousy economy', with Washington having relatively high unemployment rates and businesses moving out, why can't we demand more of our state and local governments?
Larry we should. We should also understand that the government can't run on hot air. Let's see Larry - let's play politican. Larry puts on the ballot - Rich people should always pay a smaller percentage of their income in taxes than poorer people. The status quo in WA should be in the Constitution. Don't pay any attention to that communist, Bill Gates Sr.
The U.S. spends more per student on education than any country in the world, yet we're continually about #15 in educating said students.
Definitely a problem Larry. Let's cut taxes even more! Don't bother running for school board. I'm too busy shopping and watching Fox News.
One issue is cutting taxes, which spurs economic activity.
Then I suppose you have a problem with Ronald Reagan who raised taxes 5 times after his first big tax cut. Raised taxes in California even.
The other issue is making the state and local governments ACCOUNTABLE for the money they receive. Do you have a problem with that?
Nope. That's why people should remain engaged and not let the government run on autopilot. Your form of autopilot is cutting taxes or even better regressive taxation which is no better than bomb-throwing.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 11:10 AMI love people like you, because you and your ilk are the reason the country becomes REDDER every day. I'll take the White House, Congress, Supreme Court, and control of the majority of Governor's mansions over the legislatures of Washington, Colorado, and Montana ANY DAY OF THE WEEK, IN A NEW YORK SECOND! I think you proved my point.
As for the rest of your illogical post, you are putting your words in my mouth and making assumptions about my opinions. Never mind the fact that you don't know me nor my full range of opinions, so your statements carry no weight.
How do you know what I think of regressive taxation, Ronald Reagan, the WA State Constitution, or running for the local school board? Answer: You don't, numbskull. Nice try, though - I'm sure your lack of knowledge is celebrated on moveon.org or democraticunderground.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 11:32 AMWashington State has the 7th highest state and local tax burden among all the states in 2004. re: Taxfoundation.org
You're a real treat.
Here I read Washington's State/Local Tax Burden is the 21st highest nationally and just below the national average of 10%. 9.9% to be exact.
Consider your rear-end fact checked.
That’s a good discussion of provisional ballots and Logan’s statements about them.
What we need to know is something that no one (including Stefan apparently) has asked Logan to provide: The factual basis for Logan’s opinions.
King County could have one or more of three or more bits of evidence to support Logan’s opinions about the number and identity of the people who stuffed provisional ballots into the ballot boxes rather than into the required envelopes.
WAC 434-253-043 required issuance of what was then called a “special ballot” (in 2002 when the rule was issued) to a person who appears at the polls and requests a ballot – but whose name is not on the poll book list of eligible voters. It states (emphasis added):
After the voter signs the poll book, the precinct election officer shall issue a special ballot outer envelope and a security envelope to the voter eligible for a special ballot. The voter shall vote the ballot in secrecy and when done, place the ballot in the security envelope, then place the security envelope with the ballot in it in the special ballot outer envelope and return it to the precinct election official. The precinct election official shall ensure that the required information is completed on the outer envelope and have the voter sign it in the appropriate space, and place it in a secure container.
Since bureaucrats usually copy what they see their fellow bureaucrats do – rather than read and follow the laws which govern their jobs – I suspect that King County didn’t follow that rule. I’ve obtained and read the printed instructions given to poll workers in Kitsap County and found that this county’s instructions didn’t mention anything about having the voter sign the poll book before issuing a provisional ballot.
Another piece of evidence that is possibly available to Logan may be the numbered ballot stubs or a log of them. In Kitsap, the instructions to poll workers include: “Record the stub number in the space provided on the Provisional Ballot Stub List.” While the stub number log wouldn’t include the names of the voters, it would indicate how many provisional ballots were issued in each precinct.
A third piece of evidence is the envelope provided to the voter. If the voter stuffed the ballot into the ballot box and discarded the envelope, any envelopes which could be found in the trash would give some idea of the number of provisional ballots issued – and might even contain the names of the voters, if the voters completed at least some part of the form on the envelope before deciding to stuff the ballot into the ballot box.
Having said all that, let me state to Stefan and any others who get an opportunity to speak with Logan or other King County elections officials:
Stefan,
Ask Dean Logan what evidence he is relying on when he claims:
(1) to know the number of provisional ballots that were improperly put into the ballot boxes;
(2) to know that 250 of those improper votes were cast by registered voters -- specifically, ask whether he has evidence to show who those voters were, or is he simply claiming that the improperly cast ballots would have been found to be valid in the same proportions as the properly cast provisional ballots; and
(3) to know that the 1800+ other voterless ballots which cannot be attributed to any eligible voters were simply the result of errors in the post-election process of crediting voters with participating in the election.
On that third question, if Logan believes a few thousand errors were made, ask him to list the number of errors that occurred in each precinct. He was required to do a precinct-by-precinct reconciliation of ballots and signatures in those poll books before the canvassing board certified the returns. Unless he violated that law as well, he already has in his files the reconciliation numbers for each precinct which would allow him to identify quickly and easily which precincts had more ballots in the boxes than voters in the books -- or more voters in the books than ballots in the boxes.
If there was no discrepancy noted during the reconciliation in any precinct's records, then it seems one of two things would explain the mysteriously appearing and disappearing ballots: (1)the few thousand mystery ballots could only have appeared in the county's totals by magic or old-fashioned ballot box stuffing after the ballot boxes were brought to the counting center and opened, or (2) Logan is correct -- a careful re-examination of the poll books and absentee envelopes can produce a list of voters which cast every one of the ballots counted in King County.
Logan obviously wants everyone to accept his assertion that a few thousand votes that were not legal didn't really find their way into his vote totals -- that it was just a mirage created by a few thousand errors made while crediting voters with voting.
Fine: Then, Mr. Logan, show us the evidence -- or at least tell us specifically what evidence you rely on and what you think is in that evidence.
Some day, someone needs to ask King County to reveal what their precinct reconciliation efforts (to whatever extent they made an effort) disclosed about voterless ballots before they ever certified the first count, the first recount, and the second recount.
Posted by: Micajah on January 28, 2005 11:37 AMUntil the day the R's fumble the ball and throw the game like they did in MT and CO. See you then.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 11:54 AMMy goverment should be accountable for the excessive spending. (how about the 20 million Gregoire lost this state in a lawsuit filed and not appealed in a timely manner, and Pleeeeassseee dont tell me it was a staff persons error, she is ultimately responsible.)
Chris, I appreciate your response. Regulators do over-reach occassionally and it's up to engaged people like yourself to let them know when they do that. And it's their obligation to listen hard. On the other hard aren't critical areas part of the reason we live here? We don't want WA to be another Southern California do we?
Chris G. made a bad mistake on that one and that explains why so many D's crossed lines to vote for Rossi. Hopefully she's learned from her mistakes. She won't have much room for error during her term.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 12:04 PMSLAP MY FOREHEAD! I'm truly ashamed that didn't occur to me. I'm usually more cynical than that.
Of course, you've nailed it. Dean is basing his statement on a PROJECTION that X% of all provisionals
turned out to be valid, therefore the same % of these must be valid.
STEFAN: I'd bet anything that Mica has nailed Dean in another slippery statement.
Posted by: jeanneB on January 28, 2005 12:38 PM"Until the day the R's fumble the ball and throw the game like they did in MT and CO. See you then."
Interesting that you think the Republicans will slip because they 'fumble the ball', and not because the Democratic Party will actually improve in any way, shape, or form. Maybe on that point we actually agree!
Who knows, by the time the Republicans slip up, maybe the Democratic Party will have gone the way of the Whigs, and the Republicans will be challenged by a new, competant political party? Because we know the Dems can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 12:43 PMYou slipped Larry. You putting words in my mouth now? Well let's assume for the moment that your words "carry some weight". Guess what? You're wrong.
Today I heard that Gregoire told her senior staff to read Rudy Giuliani's book especially chapter 4. You know what that shows? I'll tell you: an open mind. The D's have no choice but to deliver on effective government in a time of continuous economic and budget crisis. The R's will have no choice either as shown in MT and CO.
Did Gary Locke raise taxes in the last budget crisis? No he cut spending. A hard decision. Do you give him any credit for that?
Turn off the Faux News R's. Welcome to the reality-based community.
Because we know the Dems can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
Wrong again. Chris Gregoire fought. All you guys were screaming at her to do the "gracious thing" and fold. She didn't. She didn't play by your script. Now she's Governor and you can't stand it. I'm proud I voted for her. She's hitting the ground running and she just might deliver.
On the first count none of these vote count errors or irregularities mattered to you did they?
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 01:05 PMAnd Republicans need to get some backbone and dare to be politically incorrect and when criticized, batter the opposition with facts !
Posted by: KS on January 28, 2005 01:05 PMMicajah: Great questions. Better than having Stefan ask Dean Logan those questions, I want to hear Korrell and Maguire asking him under oath before Judge Bridges. BTW, if you live in Kitsap County, why don't you head down to Olalla some evening and ask him yourself. I'm going to be in Southworth tonight and I'd do it myself, but my wife has other plans.
Posted by: north clark county on January 28, 2005 02:07 PMIn spades, do everything you accuse the other side of doing. One who does this effectively (as seen when the other side blinks) becomes known one of "history's actors", i.e. one who fashions reality as one goes. "History's Actors" are famous for "clear skies" and "healthy forrests".
Define "batter the opposition with facts":
See Politically Incorrect.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 02:14 PMWhat is happening in Washington and Wisconsin will impact all future elections for the better. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done. I encourage all of you who really want change to volunteer your time or your money to make certain change happens.
Do you know how hard it is going to be to "cleanse" the voter registration database?
We have decades of neglect....much of it caused by a lazy, apatheitic Republican Party!!!!!!!!
I have already found some people in my town that have used MailBox service companies as their Residence Address! We have one "alternative" person who used the local "alternative" hangout as their Residence Address. I'm sure we will find plenty of folks who use business addresses, taverns, storage units etc. as their Residence Address. However, not all of them will prove to be illegitimate voters or part of some vast Left-wing conspiracy. In fact, less than half will I'll bet.
Non-US Residents and folks voting in multiple states will prove to be huge. No way currently to track this down easily. AND DON'T YOU ALL KNOW THAT MOVE-ON.ORG KNOWS IT AND HAS TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF STUPID HIPPIES AND LOW-LIFES TO PAD THE VOTER ROLLS!!!!!!
One word of caution---as you are looking at addresses of registered voters, make sure you understand there are both MAILING ADDRESS (which can be a mailing service or whatever) AND a RESIDENCE ADDRESS (that must be where they lay their head down at night). You must be able to show they do not live at their declared RESIDENCE ADDRESS.
When you find one of these and cannot find that registered voter, put it in writing to your local Auditor and ask that they be CHANGED TO INACTIVE STATUS. That way they will not get a ballot in the next election UNLESS THEY CALL IN AND GIVE A CORRECT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.
Lot's of work to do folks. Get educated on what it takes to challenge a VOTER REGISTRATION!!
Posted by: Mr. Cynical on January 28, 2005 02:19 PMI didn't slip, I did it on purpose. See how your logic works when it is employed against you? Didn't like it, did you? Gee, I wonder why. Maybe you'll be more restrained next time when you try to predict the thoughts of someone who actually thinks...but I doubt it.
As for Gregoire putting up a fight - that's a laugh. If she was a halfway decent candidate who knew how to campaign, she would have won by 100,000. Look at Patty Murray as an example - she won by a large margin. And yet she consistently wins the annual 'Least likely to be a rocket scientist' award by votes of Senate staffers. Gregoire has no idea how to fight, and she's clueless and painted in a corner by recent events.
"The D's have no choice but to deliver on effective government in a time of continuous economic and budget crisis."
You crack me up! They have many choices, and they haven't shown the ability to make the right choice in a long, long time.
"On the first count none of these vote count errors or irregularities mattered to you did they?"
Wrong again, John. They absolutely mattered. If Gregoire didn't get all the illegal ballots in the first count, she wouldn't have been within 2,000 and would have lost outright. I was concerned about her getting illegal votes BEFORE election day - that's why I volunteered to be a poll observer.
"She's hitting the ground running and she just might deliver."
She's hitting the ground running, all right - running for cover!! How else to explain that she backed off the $600 million tax proposal and went on a 'healing tour'? Explanation - she knows she's going to have to run for Governor again in a few months.
The Republicans will win in court, there will be a re-vote, and it won't be close. And when she is booted out of office, since she will never have been the rightful Governor, any bills she has signed will be declared null and void.
And as for Gary Locke - go look up 'milquetoast' in the dictionary to see his picture. Locke did nothing for eight years and our state is paying for it now. Boy, did we get a change with Gregoire! The only person from Locke's administration that isn't in Gregoire's is Gary Locke!! Can you name ONE international corporation that Gary Locke persuaded to call Washington home? I can name at least one that left!
John, I would never even pretend that I could change your mind. But I will enjoy the thought of you stewing in your own juices when Rossi becomes Governor and this state turns a little more red...or at least from blue to purple.
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 02:37 PMThe comment about Boeing moving to Chicago is interesting in several ways:
1. I have a relative who lives outside of Chicago who pays TONS more taxes than I do here. He yearns to be here in lower tax paying land. And the products he buys aren't any more expensive (businesses that pay higher taxes pass them on to consumers).
2. The wasteful democrats gave HUGE tax breaks to have the 7E7 here.
Also, Bill Gates Sr. chaired a great panel to show how unfair our tax structure is. They suggested a revenue-neutral change of the structure to reduce business burdens and regressive percentage paid by the people least equipped to pay it.
However, the Eyman scare tactics prevented the ideas from even being discussed -- and since one idea was the possible creation of a new tax structure -- it couldn't even be discussed this year in any serious way.
The scare tactics work folks. By crying "no new taxes ever" we don't even consider revenue-neutral chnages that make things fairer for people AND businesses.
That leads to NO CHANGE. Which makes the schools worse, the roads worse, the health care worse.....
The scare worked like this: any talk of changing (READ: NOT INCREASING TAXES) is just a smokescreen for raising taxes. THerefore, we shouldn't even discuss it.
It's working. We're going down...businesses are leaving and it's the very folks who claim businesses are overtaxed are preventing restructruing to reduce the business burden from even being discussed.
Just peachy.
And to those who call me stupid because I don't agree with you....sorry you feel that way.
Posted by: jim on January 28, 2005 02:41 PMFunny how you guys keep going back to taxes. As I explained in my comment to jim above, that's myopic. Taxes are one side of the coin - regulations are the other.
Every regulation on an individual or corporation is a tax. State or local governments pass regulations that must be adhered to. Who pays for that adherence? The government that instituted the regulation? Yeah, right. It's the individuals and businesses.
Between taxes and regulations, Washington State residents and businesses pay well above the average of the 49 states.
The CAO is the prime example. Can you explain how prohibiting rural residents from developing 65% of their land is anything other than a devaluation of their land without compensation? Maybe you don't consider that devaluation without compensation a tax - but most thinking people do.
And no, critical areas are not the reason I live in Washington State. If someone wants to buy a 20-acre lot, sit on it for 10 years, sell it to a developer, make a bunch of money, and retire - I think that's great!! It's called capitalism.
If you want to protect land, have the government buy the land at fair market value and make it a park. Simple enough.
Economic development is not our enemy. Every regulation that is passed in this state dampens economic development. Boeing communicated this to our leaders for decades.
As for the rest - Microsoft, Starbucks, Amazon, et al - I'd argue that NONE of them would be in Washington if they weren't founded her as small companies. Certainly as large multinational firms, they would not have moved in.
Can you name a large multinational that has moved into the state lately?
Posted by: Larry on January 28, 2005 02:52 PMOn the first count none of these vote count errors or irregularities mattered to you did they?"
Posted by John [Doe] at January 28, 2005 01:05 PM
I trust she is running...scared. I wonder just what you expect her to deliver, your paycheck?
Anyway, on your last point, have you paid any attention at all, or are you one of those trolls with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder? There are medications for your condition...
Now, back to important business: Dean admits that they used to check, but going to a new computer system meant they had to stop following the practice? I am a little slow here, I don't understand. Don't new computer programs ADD features to previous systems?
Naturally, the answer could be as simple as "lowest bidder"...or it could be that the Elections people figured the computer could do all the work for them and why make any effort to do more than that.
Posted by: smegma on January 28, 2005 03:13 PMI wrote the very same thing earlier today!
-----------------------------------
"...he has no authority under the law to cancel and refuse registrations even if the registrant lists an improper address. Challenging a registration can only be done by another voter, he explained, or by the county prosecutor."
One would assume that Dean is a registered voter. So does the law allow him to challenge a registration as a private citizen and voter?
Posted by Duane at January 28, 2005 10:01 AM
John Thanks for the reply, but I dont agree with your Critical Area reasoning. My property (10acres) is not a Critical Area, and been in my family for 50 years. I can't develop it (not that I want, but I should have a choice) into anything smaller than 2 five (5) acre parcels. This in itself is Goverement "Taking" without compensation. I should have the right to make it into tiny lots if I wanted too. BUT precendance was set with the GMA, and even rural counties must follow them. I am a lucky one, I own only 10 acres.
My neighbors own 50 acres, and they dont farm it anymore, so it has no value, and they didnt have a job at a Dot Com or large corporation to retire with benifits at 50, so their "nest egg" is worthless.
Frankly, I live here because I have all my life, and my family before me. Do you believe that the goverment should be able to "Take" a person's land in a rural area, to appease the "masses" of the City Dwellers appetite for
1."Beauty"
2."Seclusion"
3."Romantic Walks in the Woods"
4 "Water Quanity" (by that i mean so they can develop more and use less of the water resource elsewhere)
5."just because they are sick of looking at concrete everyday"
I chose to live where I do for some of the reasons above, but I don't try and dictate to those who don't how they decorate their condo.
But thanks for letting me rant a bit....
No one ever said she was perfect. Here's why I'd never in a million years think of voting for your candidate. It appears a few R's don't think much of him either. I give Dino credit for being a skilled real-estate salesman who transferred his skills to his campaign but I still wouldn't want him in the Gov's mansion.
'Least likely to be a rocket scientist' award by votes of Senate staffers
That's a laugh. R staffers? But not half as funny as George "Term Limits" Nethercutt.
they haven't shown the ability to make the right choice in a long, long time.
Did you miss my point about Gary Locke cutting spending and not raising taxes?
The Republicans will win in court, there will be a re-vote, and it won't be close.
In your dreams. There's a high legal standard for setting aside an election. It is very doubtful the R's will meet it.
any bills she has signed will be declared null and void.
More R gridlock I guess. Thanks, Larry.
And as for Gary Locke - go look up 'milquetoast' in the dictionary to see his picture. Locke did nothing for eight years
More obnoxious name-calling and wrong as well. He did many good and not so good things, like the fishing agreement with Canada, the roads bill and bending over and greasing up for the 7E7 as well as other things that don't typically make it into the headlines. Not that the Eymanized and uncooperative legislature or the lousy economy helped any. Oh yes, that 'milquetoast' as you call him beat the theocrat Ellen Craswell and the pompous ideologue John Carlson handily. Did you vote for them? As for international corporations moving, a little thing called 911 happened and the economy has gone into the toilet. I doubt many were in the moving mood and besides WA didn't have any spare cash to mix with interminable tax breaks in order to bribe them to come here.
But I will enjoy the thought of you stewing in your own juices when Rossi becomes Governor
Larry, I don't think that will happen but help yourself to the fantasy if it makes you feel better. Nice try.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 03:47 PMChris, thanks again for responding. I think the subdivision limit was designed to preserve rural areas and to encourage density. This was the purpose of the GMA and was voted on. I'm a bit of an environmentalist on that score. I believe our future is density. The more we build and develop land into classic subdivisions and suburbs the more energy we burn up at a higher rate and the more we have to borrow from China and Japan. It's very unsustainable and headed for a crisis within 5 years at the most. I've got kids and I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that they won't live in the single family home they grew up in just like many kids in Europe do now. The more efficiently we use energy, the better chance my kids will have for a bearable life and the city is way more energy efficient than the suburbs we're all so used to.
I'm sorry to hear so many people put their retirement hopes on developing their land. Possibly development can be permitted if a sustainable source of jobs moves close to where they are. In an energy efficient future that rural land is best farmed to feed the denser areas. If that happens, food doesn't have to be transported as far.
That vision may seem stark but I believe it will eventually be forced upon us because the world is running quickly out of cheap oil and gas. The sooner we conserve in a smart manner the farther out a very bad crisis can be delayed.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 04:19 PMI trust she is running...scared. I wonder just what you expect her to deliver, your paycheck?
You and Larry are more than welcome to your spiteful delusions. I guess it's called free speech. Ain't American grand?
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 04:36 PMYes, the regulations are burdensome. But how is it that we pay the same for goods and services here as they do in "more friendly" states?
You point out the businesses bear the brunt of paying for all those regulations. Any business interesting in maintaining a profit passes such costs to consumers. Why do locally produced products costs us the same?
Sure regulations should be reduced. But it's not the "sky is falling", overtaxed craziness that people here are fond of suggesting it is.
You ask if any large mulitnational companies moved here lately...nope. Boeing left, that's true. But how many multinational companies move their headquarters in any given year? I would doubt very many....
Posted by: jim on January 28, 2005 04:39 PM"1."Beauty" 2."Seclusion" 3."Romantic Walks in the Woods" 4 "Water Quanity" (by that i mean so they can develop more and use less of the water resource elsewhere) 5."just because they are sick of looking at concrete everyday"?
I fail to see the connection...
In stronger terms, it is Off Topic...
Posted by: smemga on January 28, 2005 04:44 PMLarry you're showing your ignorance. The regulations seem burdensome, yes but they're designed to prevent bad things like runoff and erosion that kill fish, pollute the sound or damage another neighbor's property. A landowner shouldn't behave like he or she lives in a bubble. Last time I read Sims was prepared to lower property taxes for severely impacted landowners. You may not think that's much but it's a start.
And no, critical areas are not the reason I live in Washington State. If someone wants to buy a 20-acre lot, sit on it for 10 years, sell it to a developer, make a bunch of money, and retire - I think that's great!! It's called capitalism.
Capitalism is great Larry. I agree. But if you don't care about fish or the sound or you want to consume tainted shellfish or import it from Alaska because the homegrown variety will kill you then you can go to Southern California or a Red State that doesn't care about those things. We passed the GMA because we didn't want it to happen here and it's about damn time we got serious about it.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 05:05 PMI don't see anything in your post even obscurely related to the original topic.
Which critique do you require? One of English usage, sentence structure, or cognitive reasoning? All three are available...and each are needed for your comment.
I should add a fourth "How critical thinking is diminished when using a speculum on yourself"...
Posted by: smegma on January 28, 2005 05:20 PMAnd I respect your obviously superior intelligence as evidenced by your elegant comments handle and you disgusting insults.
I'm done Bye. Go back to parsing Logan's responses under fire and his job performance not that you'd ever want to put that spotlight on your wretched self.
Posted by: John on January 28, 2005 05:34 PMI hope you are still on. You are completly off topic, and your assertions are wrong. All of them. You don't have a clue.
RJ
Posted by: RJ on January 28, 2005 06:47 PMPull out the clue-by-four and tell me where I'm wrong. Educate me. Are you afraid? Or are you so full of resentment or whatever it is that you just can't engage?
Fire away.
Posted by: John on January 29, 2005 09:58 AM