March 03, 2005
"... now we're just negotiating the price"

Cheapskate football fan Rep. Sam Hunt has introduced a bill to raise the limit on gifts to state officials and employees from $50 to $75

"You can't even buy a dinner around this town for $50 for two people anymore. You can't go to a Seahawks game," said Rep. Sam Hunt, D-Olympia.
Actually, Sam, I think you can still go to a Seahawks game, you just have to buy your own ticket.

Raising the gift limit is a bipartisan cause. Rep. Mike Armstrong (R-Wenatchee) is a co-sponsor of the bill. Armstrong is a good guy, but this quote is too tempting a target for me to pass up:

"If anybody thinks they're going to buy a vote on something in this place for $75, they're crazy," he added.
Uh, how much does it cost to buy a vote over there?

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at March 03, 2005 12:19 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Great question!

Reminds me of a joke about prostitutes, lobsters and crabs!

So, our represenatives want to wined and dined!
That's scary...........

Posted by: sgmmac on March 3, 2005 12:37 AM
2. Raising the gift level from $50 to $75 is really NOT that big a deal... having served as a city councilman for a small town, I can tell you that the biggest impact something like this would have is that our representatives would have less paperwork to do. Public disclosure laws ask you to report every "gift" above the thresh-hold, be it $50 or $75. This includes meals and Seahawk games, yes, but also a lot of other "gifts" you may receive from someone and think nothing of...

The purpose of such statutes is to make it harder for our representatives to be bribed or influenced by those with deep pockets. Considering the rise in cost of living over the past decade (I'm not sure when the $50 bar was set), it seems reasonable to me to raise the limit on individual gifts to $75.

Shark, to be harping on something like this just looks petty. And, I agree with about 95% of what you say in here. This would just be about part of the 5% I don't !

Posted by: RevHaughee on March 3, 2005 05:58 AM
3. I say no!
WE elected these people to represent US. Can our elected people be bought with hamburgers and a movie? No. But why should their decision making be bought anyway. Too many special interest groups have bought off many of the people’s wants and votes. Think of it, it is their job to sway the elected official’s votes in their favor. Drugs, hookers, porn, dinners, baseball games what ever it takes to get their way. So this crap about a bill to raise the limit on gifts to state officials and employees from $50 to $75 dollars is just the ‘show me’ part. NO! No gifts, no dinners, no games. Just do the job the people elected them to do.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on March 3, 2005 06:53 AM
4. I think the point is, that your representative should not be taking gifs from anyone.
A bribe is a bribe is a bribe. It does not mater how much it is.
At 50 dollars that does not sound like a lot of money. But let say a very wealthy person bought his/her representative a diner every night of the year. 365 X 50 = 18,250 for 1 person. Is that a lot of money?

Posted by: Mark on March 3, 2005 06:54 AM
5. of course, one should also wonder why our representatives worry about that "important" stuff rather than fixing the oh,...let's say, election issues, budget issues, traffic issues,...just to name a few.
Any bill like this takes time away from other issues in my opinion

Posted by: fg on March 3, 2005 07:26 AM
6. I have to say that I'm outraged!!!! My former employer (US Navy) and current employer forbid us from taking gifts of more than $5 value from contractors/vendors, etc. There is NO reason that the limit should be higher than that for legislators, but they'll fall back on "it's always been done that way".
Our elected representatives need to work to avoid the appearance of favoritism-- and this bill just increases that appearance. Let's bombard them on this issue!!!!!!!

Posted by: John Hearing on March 3, 2005 07:47 AM
7. Mark - there are limits on the total gifts from one source a lawmaker can receive annually so the kind of scenario you pose wouldn't be a problem. And for all the PDC’s faults, all that stuff is reported and available online.

As to the broader point raised by Stefan, having lobbied the legislature before, a raise in the limit is actually long overdue. One doesn't have to like it, but lobbyists buying meals, tickets, and the like for members of state legislatures and Congress is reality right now that isn't going to be changed.

Moreover, as many flaws as I see in legislative performance, our state’s legislators are essentially doing a full-time job - not necessarily well - for part-time pay. That makes it very difficult for people that don’t have an entrepreneurial type job (such as owning a relatively self-sustaining small business, being a real estate agent, etc.), are independently financially secure, or have a well-earning spouse, to run for office. I would argue that contributes to the weakness of the legislature by creating a reduced candidate pool.

They likely appreciate the gift, but having not only lobbied the state legislature but worked for Congress, I can vouch for the fact gifts don’t buy votes in the least. To argue for impractical gift limits, or outright bans, strikes me as a little too Jeffersonian: all idealism, little practicality.

Obviously you want all this stuff disclosed, and you want the right balance between what is a reasonable gift versus what is unacceptable, but I don’t think you can naively expect an outright ban or a monetary limit that is so small as to be purely nominal. If we want that, we should start by paying them a reasonable salary for the work they are elected to do…and then by all means hold them accountable at the ballot box.

Posted by: Eric Earling on March 3, 2005 07:57 AM
8. Let Sammy ol' boy know to buy his own damm tickets and dinner.

Sam Hunt
D-Olympia
District 22
Office: Legislative Building 438
Phone: 360-786-7992
E-mail: hunt_sa @leg.wa.gov

Posted by: Son of Liberty on March 3, 2005 08:05 AM
9. Nice to know the elected officials are doing the people's business. (sigh) Now I'm off to buy favors from those in power with a delightful lunch at Taco Time.

Posted by: dkpcowboy on March 3, 2005 08:21 AM
10. Where do these bozos eat in Olympia that it costs more than $50 for two people? I've lived in Olympia almost all my life and aside from a few fancy restaurants most places are easily within that limit. I can think of half a dozen downtown places right now...Thai, Vietnamese, Japanese, Italian, etc. Cute little family owned restaurants where they do a GREAT job.

There's the Outback, which my husband and I have gone to for less than $50 and Emperor's Palace which is easily under $50 for two. Olive Garden only costs about $30 for two dinners ... minus the alcohol of course. What's wrong with these places?

But those places might not be hoity toity enough for our supreme leaders...*cough*

I don't think it's a small or petty thing to bring this up. I think it's ridiculous at this point in time when they are complaining about the supposed budget 'shortfall' that they want to allow gifts of more than $50 to come in. It's irresponsible and poor timing.

Posted by: megs on March 3, 2005 08:27 AM
11. I'm with Eric. Quite frankly, I think we should pay legislators more. That way we'd attract better people than those who are there right now. I know that's not going to be a popular opinion here, though, so I'll keep it to myself.

Posted by: Timothy on March 3, 2005 08:46 AM
12. Pay them more?? C'mon. The bulk of them get around 40k for 3 months work. It wasn't meant to be a full time job and if it was at that rate, would be 160k a year. There was a time they did it for "honor" and now that H word is something out of a foreign language dictionary.

Posted by: PC on March 3, 2005 09:00 AM
13. Timothy

I don't think pay legistlators more money
will entice better people to run.First of
all there none better than pam roach and
dino rossi.No amount of money will ever
change that.


What has to change is the mentality of state
republican party leadership that says only
moderates can win.That's what is keeping good people from running.The mudslinging doesn't help
either.
from running.


For any of this to happen chris vance
has to go.He has divided this party
to the point of no return.

Posted by: phil spackman on March 3, 2005 09:05 AM
14. I don't have a problem with paying state senators to be full time. Representatives are supposed to be there to represent the people in the truest possible form, however. That means that they should be working and trying to make a living the same way the rest of us are.

We don't need professional politicians in those rep positions. If they want a political career, they can use the rep spot as a jumping off point, and then aim for becoming a state senator. If nothing else, that helps to keep some competition going in the state senate as opposed to senators for life, as we appear to have now.

As for the raising the gift limit, I don't have a problem with that either. $75 isn't much and, like Armstrong said, bribery takes place outside the reporting system. Just as the idiots on the Seattle Silly Council.

Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on March 3, 2005 09:10 AM
15. sgmmac,

How about sharing the joke?

Posted by: A on March 3, 2005 09:17 AM
16. PC - the three months of work thing is a misnomer. That's a short session. Sessions lasting 4-6 months are no longer a out of the norm. Moreover, with the number of out-of-session commitee hearings that are held, and other official business they tend to, it is by no means a three month a year job. Even if you considered it as such, the time they are in Olympia is generally chocked full of stress, long hours, and not the least bit family friendly (another barrier that limits the candidate pool).

Public service for "honor" as you put it is a bit too idealisitic. It's a nice idea, but only the wealthy can do it for "honor" in all fairness. The last thing I want is a legislature dominated only by one segment of society. Plus, it seems a bit odd to expect our legislators to support market-based solutions (as I presume many readers of this site do) but then not offer them a commensurate risk-reward benefit for their service.

Posted by: Eric Earling on March 3, 2005 09:27 AM
17. What is the salary of a senator or represenatative? A part time salary? Many people would probably love to make that much in a year. Quit making excuses for these people, who if they couldn't BS their way into elected office would probably be conning little old ladies out of their social security checks.

Posted by: DWS on March 3, 2005 09:32 AM
18. What is the salary of a senator or represenatative? A part time salary? Many people would probably love to make that much in a year. Quit making excuses for these people, who if they couldn't BS their way into elected office would probably be conning little old ladies out of their social security checks.

Posted by: DWS on March 3, 2005 09:32 AM
19. DWS - It really doesn't matter if other people would like to make that much in a year or not. You have to pay people somewhat in line with the work they are expected perform, which I would argue we don't do right now, or you get poor quality in performance...which we also get a lot of now too.

If you really think the people in office are so morally despicable as you describe, that would be further evidence we need to find a way to improve the quality of persons willing to run for these offices.

Posted by: Eric Earling on March 3, 2005 09:41 AM
20. LOL! Stefan, your headline on this entry says it all!!!!

Posted by: Michele on March 3, 2005 09:52 AM
21.

Timothy wrote,
I'm with Eric. Quite frankly, I think we should pay legislators more. That way we'd attract better people than those who are there right now. I know that's not going to be a popular opinion here, though, so I'll keep it to myself.

Timothy, your opinion is, as all opinions should be, welcome and open. Money is not the problem with getting a good people in elected offices. There can never be enough money for some office holders. Plus they will still want the extra perks. The problem is with the media and the opposing party. The lies, the hate, half-truths, digging it to the past for dirt. All this and more turns away really good people who can do the job. Long ago some of the founding fathers thought each citizen should take part in some of our governing offices. Each of us takes turns. But again good people are stopped by money. It only seems that only the very rich and or connected make it to the ballets. It is a shame. Besides a smart person can make better money in the private sector without the hassle.

Posted by: Son of Liberty on March 3, 2005 09:53 AM
22. Don't these people run for these positions? Aren't they aware of the salaries, and their limits, before they get them? Then why complain when they do get them? If you don't like your job, or your salary, find a better job.

Posted by: jp on March 3, 2005 09:54 AM
23. I have no problem with $50 or $75 ... the dollar figure is NOT the issue. The issue is ... I want them reporting who they are meeting with, how often and how much money those people are spending on them. The problem with raising the limit is it takes away that kind of visibility.

Posted by: TJ on March 3, 2005 10:17 AM
24. It's no wonder the republicans in this state or so impotent in the legislature. Choose your friends carefully.

Posted by: chopstix on March 3, 2005 10:30 AM
25. The base pay for a state legislator right now is $34,227, and goes up to $35,960 this year. That's less than $3,000 a month. Check out salaries.wa.gov for more info, including how our legislature compares to other states.

While I would certainly be happy to make that much money, I understand that it's actually quite a bit lower than what a person could make in the private sector. That's why the legislature is filled with retired folks with no kids, they're the only ones who can afford to work there.

And they don't just serve a few months every year, in 2003 they were in special session wrangling out the details of the budget until early June. You say "it's a part-time job" and that's also incorrect, during the rest of the year many legislators spend lots of time every week on legislative-related business.

And really, what other job can you get to "fill in the gaps" during the rest of the year? Who wants to hire someone who will be gone half the time, and could be called away at any time if the governor declares a special session?

My point is that these people DON'T make enough to buy their own dinner every night when a lobbyist, an activist, or a concerned citizen wants to discuss matters over a meal. Most legislators work 12-hour days during the session, if they have to buy their own meals while meeting with people they just won't do it.

If I want to buy dinner for some legislator so I can bend his ear for a few minutes on my favorite topic, why shouldn't I be able to?

RM

Posted by: rmueller on March 3, 2005 10:36 AM
26. Money is not the problem with getting a good people in elected offices.

Having discussed this with people who have worked to recruit candidates, I can tell you that this is just not true. Money is a huge problem in recruiting candidates.

Phil--
This is completely off topic, but... Chris Vance has been reelected. There's no realistic way to get rid of him now. Those of us who opposed his reelection need to get past that and focus on the 2005 and 2006 elections. As the SecDef famously said, "you don't go to war with the State Party Chairman you want, you go to war with the State Party Chairman you have." Further attacks on Vance will only serve to hurt the party and thus the state. Vance is doing the right thing and holding town hall meetings this month throughout the state. Attend those, but remember--we're stuck with the man, so we need to talk about the issues.

Posted by: Timothy on March 3, 2005 10:50 AM
27. It is time for Goverment to catch up to where business was a decade ago. Many business now have explicit ethics rules that forbid any gifts at all. Gone are the days in business where buyers recieve TV's and other perks from vendors. While an expensive meal is still allowed as an enertainment expense at some companies in manufacturing we are starting to see some business crack down on that as well.

As far as salaries for State legislators go they really are not in the range for the work expected. State legislators should have a salary schedule that considers their job as full time. That being said though, I certainly wouldn't want them to be in secession any longer though. They do enough damage in the time they are already there.

Posted by: Sixsigma on March 3, 2005 11:22 AM
28. Worrying about a $75 dinner seems quite petty to me. I hope I don't see a lot of posts like this. It approaches the level of a malcontent.

Posted by: Greg V on March 3, 2005 11:53 AM
29. I have heard that line before. It was from a union man who when he was asked to work harder at his job, his response was "they don't pay me enough to work that hard". He already was not doing much more than screwing off most of the day. I submit that they could triple his wages and that would still be his complaint. "They don't pay me enough". His problem was his work ethic. The problem with 'professional', live off of the taxpayer politicians is too often the same.

Posted by: DWS on March 3, 2005 12:48 PM
30. Timothy

My friend I don't particularly care who it
hurts.Vance has done more to hurt the party
than I ever could.I will not stand by while he
systematically destroys this party.


It gives no me great pleasure to say this
but as long as chris vance runs the party
the division in the party will grow wider.
What it comes down to is I simply think that a
a leader should be honorable person.


We Don't have that now.

Posted by: phil spackman on March 3, 2005 01:14 PM
31. DWS - that's a bad comparison. Union members have minimal accountability often times. In contrast, the ballot box in some sense is the ultimate form of job accountability.

Posted by: Eric Earling on March 3, 2005 01:52 PM
32. Everyone seems to have missed that this applies to both politicians and all state employees. I have watched book publisher sales people come through college campuses with free lunch and other goodies for faculty and especially department chairs. The worst - an all expense paid trip to "computer conference in Las Vegas" that was, in fact, 4 half days of publisher sales pitches, $100 dinners and evening shows. It is also against the law.

Consider the impact of free gifts to other state employees - to influence them to make purchase decisions based on free gifts, meals and plenty of stroking. It works to influence purchases or they would not be doing it. Some state workers make decisions to spend taxpayer money, in part, based on the subsidized influence of sales freebies. (I'm sure that many are ethical and do not engage in these activities but I have seen the abuse myself.)

If anything, the $50 level should be cut to $25. That's adequate for a few cups of coffee or lattes. Beyond that, its just out and out corruption. There is a reason that all private employers I've ever worked for had strict restrictions on accepting free gifts from vendors. The state would be wise to not only clamp down on the gift limit, but to actually enforce the rule (as best I can tell, its not actually enforced.)

Posted by: Ed on March 3, 2005 03:53 PM
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