March 13, 2005
More Disclosure, Not Less

A big donnybrook continues to unfold over attempts to reinforce and strengthen state public disclosure law. The Olympian reports:

Key Washington lawmakers say they are dropping language in a hotly contested public-disclosure bill that would have strengthened attorney-client privilege for government lawyers. Attorney General Rob McKenna, who had offered a definition of privilege that he considered a compromise between warring factions, said he is willing to wait another year. Even so, a strong lobbying effort is under way from local governments, which want the same privilege for government lawyers that private attorneys have always enjoyed. That privilege allows lawyers and clients to consult without being compelled to divulge their communications.

...Under a proposal from Sen. Jim Kastama, D-Puyallup, government lawyers would be allowed the same privilege as private lawyers, which the Coalition for Open Government contends is a way to sweep more government information into secrecy.

Olympian Executive Editor Vickie Kilgore is among those who think this could impede the public's ability to know important information about their school, city or county and state government agencies.

Other members of the coalition have said such privilege could be used to withhold such internal investigation reports as the one showing why lawyers for then-Attorney General Christine Gregoire failed to appeal a $17.8 million jury verdict in 2000.

More from the same Olympian story on "what's at stake:"

Senate Bill 5735 and House Bill 1758 await votes this week. They would change the state's Public Disclosure Act in several ways. They would: Prohibit agencies from rejecting records requests because they are overly broad; allow audits of agency document copying costs; require agencies to identify a records-disclosure contact for the public; limit copying costs to 15 cents per page; llow government to ask for a 10 percent deposit on copying fees; raise fines for improper cases of nondisclosure to a range between $5 and $500 per day....; set a one-year deadline for challenging a denial or slow response; require a model rule for disclosure for agencies by Feb. 1, 2006. The Attorney General's Office would draft it.

One major difference remains between the Senate and House approaches: SB 5735 would adopt as law the language from a state Supreme Court decision on lawyer-client confidentiality for government lawyers. Records transmitted in confidence between public officials or employees for the purpose of rendering legal advice would not have to be disclosed. However, records would have to be released if they merely reflected communications at meetings in which a lawyer was present; giving a copy of records to legal counsel would not make those records exempt either.

More here in Sunday Olympian op-eds from AG McKenna, Olympian Exec. Ed. Kilgore, and State Auditor Brian Sonntag.

Sonntag writes:

Knock. Knock. "Who's there?" "The public."

"The public who?"

"The public that shouldn't have to keep banging on government's doors, trying to get in."

....in 1972, the state's voters approved an initiative that made it very clear who's in charge of government:

"The people of this state do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies that serve them. The people ... do not give their public servants the right to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for them to know. The people insist on remaining informed ..."

Fast-forward to 2005. The people are still insisting, and governments are still resisting.

The public's right to know in Washington is under constant, while often subtle, assault. Meetings sometimes aren't advertised or are held in secret. Records aren't disclosed for sometimes mind-boggling reasons. Court decisions largely continue to favor government, not the people who created it and hired its officials in the first place.

Why? I wish I knew.

Real estate negotiatons involving government? Government personnel matters? Some public sector security issues? Sure, I can see the need for some discretion there. But we should be very, ah, conservative about exceptions to open records and public disclosure laws. Anything that can strengthen that conservatism is a good idea.

Posted by Matt Rosenberg at March 13, 2005 06:59 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Ok, I have a problem with a state auditor that cannot do simple arithmetic. 1972 was not "twenty-three" years ago. By my archaic method of mathematics (that would be the way math was taught before "New Math") 1972 was "thirty-three" years ago.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Jim in Clark County on March 13, 2005 07:20 PM
2. NO way. The people are STILL in charge. They are STILL paying for all this dungheap that goes on in government. There is NO WAY in honk we should be denied knowledge of it. As long as I'M paying the freight, they'll keep letting me know what they're up to. Why don't they see that? They forget that WE the taxpayers pay for their nonsense.

Posted by: Michele on March 13, 2005 08:47 PM
3. Jim, so...right. Thanx.

Posted by: Matt R. on March 13, 2005 08:49 PM
4. Does anybody know WHEN there will be a decision as to whether or not there will be a new gubernatorial election held?

Posted by: KittyBurglar on March 14, 2005 03:29 AM
5. "Real estate negotiatons involving government? Government personnel matters? Some public sector security issues? Sure, I can see the need for some discretion there. But we should be very, ah, conservative about exceptions to open records and public disclosure laws."

Here-here. Well said, it seems that when "public officials" pass thru the membrane that separates them from "civilians" they put on a mantle of arrogance. -Spin

Posted by: SpinDaddy on March 14, 2005 06:19 AM
6. Maybe the Patriot Act gives them the justification they need to deny you access. I googled it and that would seem to be the case. I'm hoping that when you guys get rid of the filibuster it comes back to bite you in a similar fashion.

Posted by: headless lucy on March 14, 2005 09:09 AM
7. Kitty:

Yes, the decision has been made. The new gubernatorial election will be held the first Tuesday in November of 2008.

Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 14, 2005 09:25 AM
8. Headless - I find it amusing the way you hide behind the Patriot act for County issues and them protecting themselves, but for some reason when the county should supporting other federal they pass laws specifically forbidding it. I'm referring to illegal aliens.

Unkl - you need to catch up on current events, the decision has not yet been made. Wishful thinking and repeating it over and over will not make it true.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 09:36 AM
9. Thanks for the update Fred. I just couldn't resist the tweak.

Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 14, 2005 10:05 AM
10. Fred: Of course you're ammused, because you are uninformed in this matter. If you really knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't have committed yourself to that view in writing.

Posted by: headless lucy on March 14, 2005 10:08 AM
11. Headless Lucy,

You are and always will be a felthching troll!!!

Posted by: James Jones on March 14, 2005 10:19 AM
12. And you're a towel, James Jones!

Posted by: toweley on March 14, 2005 10:30 AM
13. Jim, while you are correct in pointing out that 1972 was 33, not 23, years ago, I think you're missing the overall point and deriding someone over a small detail like that is not productive. I'm not sure if you're doing so just because Brian happens to be a Democrat. I sincerly hope not because not only would it be a petty thing to do, but we need to applaud the good Democrats like Brian and encourage them to keep up the good work. Bipartisan does not have to be a dirty word.

As far as brainless lucy is concerned, sorry, but you can't use the Patriot Act to explain the ills of society anymore than you can use "institutional racism" or any other liberal buzz words. Most of us here at SP are a little more intelligent and if you want to get in the game you're going to have to come up with arguments that are a little more intelligent.

Posted by: Mark Griswold on March 14, 2005 10:31 AM
14. Mark,

Take this as you will, but there were no politics involved in my initial comment. Just simple math. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian; no diff to me. I would have made the same comment.

Two things struck me about that particular statement. I initially only read the blurb posted here, thinking it was a typo I went to the original story and the same error was there. So what we have is someone writing a story and making an obvious error, then an editor reading this story and not catching the error and allowing the author the opportunity to correct it so that I wouldn't have gotten the first comment that only highlighted the error.

So, we have a State Auditor that cannot do simple math and a newspaper editor that cannot edit very well. That is just sad. Speaks tons about the way that we educate people in this country.

It is that education system that forces me to review my childrens homework and amazes me that what I think they should know at this point they don't. I know some of that is my issue to deal with (and my wife and I do), but it is also the responsibility of the schools.

Sorry, Matt for taking this in a different direction. You don't want to get me going on the state of the educational system in this country.

Jim

Posted by: Jim in Clark County on March 14, 2005 11:23 AM
15. Headless - as you are so informed, tell me that I am wrong that Seattle among many other jurisdictions have expressly forbidden the police to ask the legal status of people they arrest. This is not enforcing laws of the land. But when there is something to hide then the Patriot act is their screen.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 11:37 AM
16. Denial of a fact because you think it unlikely is in no way proof that I'm an idiot. Why would I want to be in a game where both sides self-importantly consider themselves above even considering researching a thing that I know to be true.I've already told you where to find the information, so prove me wrong, if you can. And while you're researching that ,why not research any and I mean ANY example in all of World History where tax-cuts(especially to the rich) led to long range and sustained economic prosperity. I already know you will find only evidence to the contrary. Conservative belief- structures are based only on hatred of "Straw-Man" liberals, not on any facts.

Posted by: headless lucy on March 14, 2005 12:12 PM
17. Lucy, get back to work, the tax payers are paying your salary afterall. Maybe we should all vote NO on the next Seattle School District levy, since they can afford to have you on the payroll doing nothing all day, everyday.
The information on Govn't salaries in available online because of public disclosure. This is how we find out you are wasting our money and crying for more.
You pretend to know about the tax structure but when you start squealing about tax cuts for the rich, you look like an idiot. As a radical liberal, you may never be able to understand tax cuts as that understanding is a gene missing in all liberals.

Posted by: chardonnay on March 14, 2005 12:21 PM
18. Lucy - how about JFK, he cut taxes from the 90%. As I recall the 60s were quite prosperous.

PS I think it was only "the rich" that were in the 90% bracket, admittedly I have not researched it, just my guess.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 12:30 PM
19. Under Kennedy's plan the rich only got the tax credit if they invested the money.This is not the case with Bush's tax cut. Sorry, try again.

Not to burst your bubble,but on a different vein, Sen. Bird is a trojan horse. Everyone knows this. Think that one through.

Posted by: headless lucy on March 14, 2005 01:03 PM
20. I'm sorry Lucy, I forgot that "the rich" ate theirs from the Bush tax cuts instead of investing it. My mistake.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 01:11 PM
21. What do liberals think "the rich" do with their money? You can't honestly think that they hoard it somewhere under their mattress do you? The money is invested in something, if nothing else treasury notes.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 01:15 PM
22. Jim, point well taken. You are right that our education system is seriously lacking and although I think the difference between 23 and 33 was probably just a typo on Brian's part that wasn't caught by the copy editor, what does that say about our attention to detail in this society? As they say in the Navy (and probably all the other services), attention to detail will save your life.
Note: this post was triple checked for errors.

Posted by: Mark Griswold on March 14, 2005 01:27 PM
23. Headless says, [give me] ANY example in all of World History where tax-cuts (especially to the rich) led to long range and sustained economic prosperity.

Fred responds, “how about JFK, he cut taxes from the 90% (presumably meaning marginal rate). As I recall the 60s were quite prosperous,” to which Headless replies, “Under Kennedy's plan the rich only got the tax credit if they invested the money. This is not the case with Bush's tax cut. Sorry, try again.”

I can see why she calls herself headless.

You really got us there Headless.

Posted by: Amusedbyou on March 14, 2005 01:35 PM
24. Brainless Lucy, you're sooo funny and sooo smart. I wish we all could be like you. Hey! you probably know who shot Kennedy, right? And I guess we don't have to wait for Woodward and Bernstein to tell us who Deepthroat is. Run for your lives, people! Lucy, will you lead our mass exodus to Canada, Sweden, France or whatever the Utopia Country de jour is? Bush is the anti-Christ! Bush is a Christain fundamentalist wacko! Bush is Hitler! Bush panders to Israel too much (oh, wait, that doesn't make sense).
Maybe we should rethink getting rid of tall the liberals. Where we turn for laughter?

Posted by: Mark Griswold on March 14, 2005 01:36 PM
25. Rob McKenna's Asst AG Greg Overstreet is a real stud-muffin! Overstreet has built a strong guiding document to improve open government/
Overstreet-BRILLIANT, HANDSOME & ARTICULATE.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on March 14, 2005 01:39 PM
26. Amusedbyou, yes I did mean marginal rate... I was just a bit intimidated to respond to someone that has such a vast knowledge of all the world's tax and economic systems throughout all history so as to be able to make such a catagorical statement.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 01:44 PM
27. If you don't have an answer, attack the questioner's credence. Another typical conservative trick.... You're all just tools of the Dominionists.

Posted by: headless lucy on March 14, 2005 02:23 PM
28. Lucy, If you are referring to me I am not attacking your credence, it is you that made the statement "And while you're researching that ,why not research any and I mean ANY example in all of World History where tax-cuts(especially to the rich) led to long range and sustained economic prosperity." I can only assume that you have knowledge of all of these to make such a statement. I was not attacking you, in a matter of fact I am quite in awe of anyone who has that broad a knowledge!

Speaking of not answering the question, you didn't answer where you think "rich people" put their money if they don't invest it. If there isn't a reasonable answer (not some small minority that you may be able to find) then the distinction you say there is between Kennedy and Bush is basically zero.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 02:30 PM
29. Getting back on track...ignoring idiotic trolls regarding the effect of the Patriot Act on state disclosure rules (maybe if the organization was helping the Feds in a PA investigation, a highly unlikely scenario) and the laughable statement that JFK's tax cut was different because the proceeds had to be invested (as opposed to stuffing under the mattress, i suppose)...

this attempt to deny access to public records is very serious and should concern everyone across the political spectrum. There are some legitimate concerns by private equity managers about FOIA requests, but that is a tiny, tiny part of the equation. Government has become so powerful that only spotlights onto misconduct have any effect. Taking that capability away while not taking the ability of government to abuse its considerable power (CAO? Eminent Domain? Elections? DSHS?) would be a gigantic step towards serfdom for those of us on the outside.

This legislature is very hurried in its actions so far. There is an almost palpable sense of concern regarding the Rossi/Gregoire situation on the part of the Dems. Some of the results of that concern clearly are terrible bills (I200 set aside, "emergency" bills) that must be pushed through rapidly for fear of not having a pliable governor in 2006.

Posted by: iconoclast on March 14, 2005 02:46 PM
30. They invest in expensive spreads in Texas, Florida, and Utah. Are you one of them? You do know that the original trickle-down metaphor was wel-fed horses mean well-fed birds? But we're neither hoses, birds, or those who wait for the "trickle" from on high. At least I'm not .
Don't patronize me with your disparaging reference to "rich people"--one of which I'm sure you're not!

Posted by: headless lucy on March 14, 2005 02:53 PM
31. I find the definition of rich generally means twice as much as the person saying it earns. So some people would think I am rich, others wouldn't. That is the reason for quotes. You seem easily offended, why?

Who do you think builds these expensive spreads? Who do you think cleans and maintains these spreads. I'm sure these people are very glad that those "rich people" are spending their money to provide them jobs. These people have jobs to support their families and they also pay taxes.

Posted by: Fred on March 14, 2005 03:03 PM
32.
But we're neither hoses, birds, or those who wait for the "trickle" from on high.

Since that description of improving the conditions of the poor comes from "progressives", not Republicans, no wonder it is inappropriate. If you must have a metaphor, the proper one is that a rising tide lifts all boats.

Investing in high-priced spreads. Sounds like a great way to make a small fortune....out of a large one. Any other investment advice you care to offer?

Posted by: iconoclast on March 14, 2005 03:15 PM
33. Headless lucy, improving your spelling would add to your credibility, don't you think?? As in amusing. No, I wasn't a teacher in a previous life. I have just discovered that the devil does usually hide in the details, LOL!

Posted by: FkaShadow on March 14, 2005 04:38 PM
34. Why are Conservatives so proud that Milton Friedman got an award from a Socialist country like Sweden?

Posted by: s-choir on March 15, 2005 08:29 AM
35. s-choir - If you are referring to the Nobel prize, Nobel was a capitalist businessman that made a lot of money. He set up a fund to award people who improve the well being of humanity.

Nobel is just another example of the "filthy rich" that are greedy and spit on the common gutter snipe. Ooops, I guess that doesn't fit.

Posted by: Fred on March 15, 2005 09:07 AM
36. Fred: DYNO_MITE!!!!!

Posted by: s-choir on March 15, 2005 09:15 AM
37. True, it was because of dyno-mite, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a business man that set up the prize, not the Swedish or any other government. Just because the prizes are awarded within a country's border does not mean that it is awarded by that country. This is typical spin put on by libs. It would be preferable to have a socialist government than a generous businessman, as the latter is not meant to exist.

Posted by: Fred on March 15, 2005 11:50 AM
38. Conservatives act like communists. I'm sick of it. You guys just want to take advantage of the next socialist program to come down the pike. What are you thinking being proud of the socialist Nobel Prize! I think you're just Christian- hating commies!

Posted by: s-choir on March 15, 2005 11:59 AM
39. Ah, but then King County would have to release things like the magical big notebook more quickly and before they have a chance to doctor it up.

While the totalitarians are in charge, public disclosure will always be a nebulus concept.

Posted by: DeadManVoting (aka Iguana) on March 15, 2005 12:11 PM
40. S-Choir, I didn't think it was possible for a bigger moron than headless lucy to troll this site but I think you just proved me wrong. Conservatives = Communists?! Excuse me while I wipe the tears from my eyes after laughing so hard. I don't even know where to place you on the political spectrum. I'd really be curious to know where you get your political thought from. Who knows, maybe we're all wrong and after you explain it to us maybe you'll win the Nobel Prize.

Posted by: Mark Griswold on March 15, 2005 01:13 PM
41. s-choir - Are you trying to say that the only reason Milton F spent his life in economics was to try and take "advantage of the next socialist program to come down the pike"?

Do you feel the Nobel prizes are socialist programs? or has the subject changed? Where on earth are you coming from with this?

Posted by: Fred on March 15, 2005 02:19 PM
42. Fred

I think that s-choir was making a wierd attempt to reduce the stature of Friedman vis a vis Chomsky by denigrating the validation of Friedman's stature in economics brought by the Nobel Prize.

It was a very strange troll, but several people bit it seems. I guess it is one more example of the random walk apparent in online debates.

Posted by: iconoclast on March 15, 2005 04:01 PM
43. iconoclast - I can't argue with you there - very strange indeed!

Posted by: Fred on March 15, 2005 04:35 PM
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