August 09, 2005
Nickels' Folly

Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels plan to "Vancouverize" Seattle is deemed unrealistic by the Vancouver planners he brought in to review his plan. No kidding.

Nickels thinks he can "stop urban sprawl in the region" by attracting families with children to live in downtown high-rises and building more public schools downtown. Some free business advice to the Mayor Nickels -- families with children will opt whenever possible for (a) single-family houses with yards in (b) good school districts. One of the main reasons for sprawl in the region is the collapse of the Seattle School District, driving scores of thousands of families out of Seattle's single-family neighborhoods. Fixing Seattle's existing public schools that serve a shrinking population is enough of a lost cause, let alone building new schools and convincing new families to enroll their kids in them.

Increasing downtown density might entice more childless adults who enjoy urban living to live downtown, but if the Mayor thinks enough families will sign up to make a meaningful dent in sprawl, then he's smoking crack. Yet another reason why it is time to retire Seattle's leadership. Too bad Nickels' most compelling challenger this year is Richard Lee.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at August 09, 2005 11:43 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Seattle is developing many of the same parameters as San Francisco and that is what drove me away from California years ago. The ever-increasing demand for social services coupled with lousy schools drove out the middle-class in San Francisco and all that was left were the low-income social service clients and the very, very wealthy. Hardly anybody was left to pay the bill. Couple that with people commuting to Seattle from elsewhere and the need to staff emergency services like police & fire to the peak loads and you have a prescription for disaster. City population is like the tide. 8AM the people tide rolls in and at 5PM the tide flows out. You still have to plan Emergency Services for the peak loads. Ordinary families can't afford the tab for that. Glad I live in Redmond now.

Posted by: Johnh on August 9, 2005 12:06 PM
2. Kids living in concrete high-rise - that sounds incredibly depressing. Nobody should put their kids through such confinement. Parks are not the same as a secure yard, especially not parks with bums and drug addicts in them.

Nickels is such an idiot. He doesn't seem to undertand anything about families.

It does not matter if they build new schools. They would have that same management. So, the would suck. But, even if they build new schools, how are they going to do that? Make the developers of Nickels' silly "urban villages" pay for them?

Schools are a big problem. Lack of affordable single family homes is another. And another big problem that nobody in politics wants to touch is that Seattle is patently unfriendly to male half of families.

Check out Nickels 5-year strategic plan to "end domestic violence." It was written by man-hating gender feminists straight out of Women Studies at UW.

The City Attorney spends 34% of its budget attacking families, turning domestic disputes into capital cases in their misguided War on the Patriarchy. Nickels' idea of "strong families" is to put the father in jail and have the mother go through the state for child support payments from him.

Meanwhile, child molestors are running free and drug addicts occupy parks.

The only marriages Seattle government is concerned about are gay marriages.

Screwed up priorities and misguided policies. Unless, of course, secretly what Seattle wants are singles only in the city, with half of them dependent on government in some way. From the look of it, that is what these bozos are after and the talk of families, children, and schools is all just a smoke screen.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 9, 2005 12:07 PM
3. I love liberal code-speak!

From the announcement: "It will be good for the environment."

Code-speak - Any damages to the "environment" will be wreaked elsewhere for everything that we consume onsite.

"For the first time, new commercial and residential buildings will routinely comply with the basic Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating system."

We've seen how that's (not) working out for several recent additions to the area.

"It will reduce traffic by locating housing within walking distance to jobs and to buses so people can commute without cars."

This way, the vehicles they buy will be purely for recreational use (probably those dastardly SUV's!).

"It will protect our heritage."

Only a liberal could contemplate tearing things up and changing things to mean preserving things!

Posted by: alphabet soup on August 9, 2005 12:13 PM
4. Agree with BananaLand. Alot of what Nichols & Dems are doing to "fix" Seattle, is exactly what is "wrong" and why people leave. They leave so they can keep more of their money, and raise families in a healthy atmosphere. Because they genuinely care about their children, and hope to keep enough of their income to not require government assistance.

As usual, Seattle is clueless.

Posted by: dl on August 9, 2005 12:15 PM
5. Those are some great choices, a left wing environMENTAL professor with and axe to grind and a conspiracy theorist.
Only in Seattle. Sheesh

Posted by: Jim L on August 9, 2005 12:17 PM
6. I don't know about you, Jim L, but I'm voting for the conspiracy theorist, Richard Lee.

I mean, look, his policies can't be any more ridiculous than what comes out of Mayor Nipples and the Seattle Silly Council.

Meanwhile, we can all get some amusement out of watching Lee set up a blue ribbon commission to study the murder of Kurt Cobain. Lord knows what other crazy things he would do and, frankly, it would be a blast to watch. And, it would be relatively harmless compared to Nickels' desire to micromanage the most intimate details of our lives.

Thanks, dl for agreeing.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 9, 2005 12:25 PM
7. I wonder where Mayor Nickels lives...I truly don't know. I also seem to remember that he is married with children but I have no idea of what age. I would place a hearty bet that had he the choice when his children were of a vulnerable age (under 13 or so) he would have made the choice to raise those children in a hospitable suburban environment. I purposely leave the quality of schools aspect out of this argument as I feel that the safety of my children on a daily basis is of far greater concern than is their third grade teacher. I can compensate their "education".

Posted by: k2 on August 9, 2005 12:30 PM
8. Kids living right next to the wet apartment for drunks. The park down the street with the winos passed out, druggies shooting up. The homeless using the parking garage as a latrine.

Oh Yeah, quality of life for raising kids.

I think pass on this one Mayor 2 1/2 cents.

Posted by: JCM on August 9, 2005 12:40 PM
9. ugh! You'd think these people would have figured out by now that people completely reject the notion of families living in downtown highrises. But they keep coming back with their lame idea anyway.
puh-leeeeze. spare us!

Posted by: Michele on August 9, 2005 12:55 PM
10. And btw, there are more libs than you think living out in east KC on (horrors!) rural acreage!!! See--even THEY reject this crazy, extremist high-rise idea.

Posted by: Michele on August 9, 2005 12:58 PM
11. Just so everyone knows that the Seattle urban elites walk their talk, the Legal Director for the SMP lives in a VERY COMFORTABLE detached single family home with guesthouse on the shores of Haller Lake. They used to be my neighbors before they moved to Haller Lake and I moved to Jefferson County.

Now, let me guess. Ron Sims, Greg Nichols and all the Democrats/Socialists on the City and County Councils live in apartments.

Posted by: JC Bob on August 9, 2005 01:00 PM
12. This "smart growth" scheme, as with most "smart growth" schemes, is detrimental to society as a whole, and geopolitically deadly.

When you crowd rats, they eat their young. When you crowd lemmings, they do that mass suicide thing off the local cliffs. When you crowd chickens, they select individuals to bully and peck them to death. When you crowd people, you get more muggins, murders, and other forms of urban maxi-violence. None of these these are conducive to the healthy rearing of the young of most any species.

That aside, we live in highly uncertain times, geopolitically speaking. That alone makes urban "infilling", deeply unwise, and something that no thinking society should indulge in.

Concentrating your population into widely separated urban clusters provides potential adversaries with very economically attractive conquest opportunities. For a very modest investment, you can lob a few missiles and see your "advanced" adversary, the one that indulged in all those "smart growth" fantasies, capitulate overnight. Mutually assured destruction? Not when your adversary has weakened itself internally to the point where the "political suicide" of a counterstrike far outweighs the societal suicide of failing to launch that strike as soon as the attacker's first missle leaves its launcher.

And, what if there's not even a definable adversary nation to hit back at? A couple of Islamic "martyrs" with purloined suitcase nukes, and the wise persons in the Other Washington would have us all scraping our noses five times a day in the direction of Mecca, with our daughters removed from all opportunity.

We've been seeing worries of a bird flu pandemic recently. Where would such a pandemic see the highest casualty rate ... in our dense urban zones or out in the countryside? Should we wonder whether Osama and his buddies have a few vials of anthrax, smallpox, or 1918 flu available to use in our cities?

In any society existing in today's geopolitical climate, the greatest safety from attack by an adversarial nation lies in dispersing the populace across the available lands within iits borders.

So...

How is concentrating newcomers into high-rises along the I-5 Corridor being considered the intelligent thing to do?

Posted by: gaelwolf on August 9, 2005 01:01 PM
13. That's twice you've made my day today, Iguana. Your first posting turned all the screws. Nickels and his ilk live in the Leftist Pinhead (with apologies to Mr. Cynical) echo chamber region called Seattle. He probably isn't even acquainted with a traditional family. His "family" values seem more aligned with the Broadway/Volunteer Park Sewer District.

Posted by: Saltherring on August 9, 2005 01:03 PM
14. We wont be spared Michele.

The city will waste a gazillion dollars on this "vision" of Mayor Nipples. Meanwhile, they will let the infrastructure of the few city neighborhoods that are hospitable to children (not families, because the entire city lives under the same anti-family laws) go into decline.

For example, Nickels' will continue with his drive to move CASA Latina from Belltown (where it belongs) and put it out in a neighborhood with families, like Mt. Baker, Madrona, or West Seattle. Not families will move into Belltown, while families will move out of the place that he puts CASA Latina.

Oh, and then they will put a halfway house full of pedophiles in one of these single family home neighborhoods, and so on.

These people are "true believers" in thier idiocitic ideas and will never cease with them.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 9, 2005 01:04 PM
15. I still maintain that all soul and therefore hope was lost for Seattle in the 1970's when they started refurbishing Pioneer Square -- Yesss -- those were the days -- for blocks around and King St to Pike St on first Ave -- wall to wall winos and the businesses were all pawn shops, bars, penny arcades, steam baths, junk/surplus/joke stores and burlesque at the Rivoli Theater -- wow -- and the biggest retail sales were of items with names like Thunderbird, Ripple, Wild Irish Rose --Camel, Bull Durham, and Copenhagen - Yess -- good Olde Seattle -- and all the olde dump buildings were flophouses -- wow

First step was to change the old dime shuttle buses to a 'free zone' - got those winos spread out all over town -- then they got the freeway park lid over the freeway and negated any posssiblity for building the second level of NEEDED freeway along I-5 >> think kids - that could have been done 30 years ago and doubled traffic capacity through Seattle -- and meanwhile the viaduct could have been torn down and rebuilt -- while the increased freeway capacity took up the increased traffic - but wait - oops -- da big a$$ planners and idea a$$holes that have far too much influence around here woulda used the increased capacity of the freeway as an excuse to tear down the viaduct and the condo march woulda been in full gear - what a G-D joke this town is - right - I said town

The thing that then destroyed the middle class social fabric and school system was the democRATS G-D school busing -- I personally knew 4-5 families that just plain moved on -- they were OUTTA here -- and have never looked back or regretted moving --

Now we have a total lunitic for a mayor that wants to turn downtown into a tenement park -- half this town is run by slum lords now -- I smell just more of the usual socialist SH-T - 'it's for the children' - 'urban renewal' - artsy craftsy - folkmusic on every corner - art galleries, gift shops - hey - I want hotdog vendor carts -- get on with it Seattle - why can't ya get sophisticated -- if ya really grow up you too can have hot roasted chestnut dealers on every corner at Christmas --

Posted by: Bill on August 9, 2005 01:05 PM
16. Vancouver is a beautiful city, but it has its warts. Nickels will find a way to not import the beauty, but get us all the warts he can.

Was just in VAN this past weekend. We were walking around in the West End and passed one bum asking a group of others for "cleans" (as in needles, folks). Nice.

Cities are chicken and egg problems, only with clear solutions. People won't move here and raise families here unless these conditions are met:

1. Safety
2. Good education
3. Good environment to raise kids in

Unless you have 1-3 worked out ahead of time, you'll never force a developer to sink tons of money into new housing. Why should they?

Nickels needs to run the bums out of town a la Giuliani. Then fix the schools. Only then will people move into Seattle and raise their kids.

Posted by: steve_dog on August 9, 2005 01:05 PM
17. Yeah, Bill, "town" is right. The idiots that run the place are always trying to be like SF or like some eastcoast city like Philadelphia.

They don't seem to get it that those are not cities to aspire to. Quite the opposite.

Seattle had a chance to be really different. To be a city that didn't go down the direction of beaurocratic planning commissions, etc...

Instead, this place strives for mediocrity. It wears it like a badge, like being half what you could be is the "sensitive" thing to do.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 9, 2005 01:10 PM
18. Perhaps the mayor is simply trying to ensure enough ridership to support the Monorail....

But seriously, I'm sure the mayor is trying his best to see that his vision of Seattle as a city of the future doesn't happen without closely following the new urbanist plan.

Posted by: Ironman on August 9, 2005 01:21 PM
19. I dont understand why a mayor of a large city dosen't get it--highrises for families? with all the info & resources at his disposal, one would think....nah...

also--note where the elite like Greg & Ron THEMSELVES choose to live--usually a healthy chunk of land and BIG, guarded fences; no studio in Poshville; no neighborhood kids sitting on his porch and raiding the lemonade jug in his fridge; if they live downtown you can bet they have something tucked away on the islands or a 'little something' in Vail or jackson Hole Wy where they host homeless kid functions, right?

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 9, 2005 01:25 PM
20. Right steve_dog - except for the developer(s) sinking money part -- I figger some of those developer bucks are already waiting in the wings - the trick now is that Nipples has to conjure up all the socialist talking points, hot-buttons, and buzzzzz words (ala my previous message) in order to pop loose those 'FREE' government bucks - you know - "for the children"

Remember the stadiums folks -- maybe we can get 'emergency' tenement construction.

Also remember that when it comes to 'growth regulation', 'urban planning', environment - etc - the over-riding factor at shitty hall is - HOW MUCH MORE TAXES CAN WE COLLECT TO KEEP OUR PENSIONS AND FRINGES PUMPED UP

Posted by: Bill on August 9, 2005 01:28 PM
21. If we're going to "Vancouverize" Seattle does that mean we get the same group of Junkies and Whores that they have on the streets up there?

Posted by: swassociates on August 9, 2005 01:52 PM
22. NEWS FLASH!!!!!!
Mayor Nickels will also be REQUIRING all Seattle residents and visitors to finish EVERY SENTENCE with "EHHHHHH"!!
He is also proposing a new 200-member EHHHHHH Police Force to insure we are Vancouverizered appropriately.
There will be a $25 fine for every sentence not finished with EHHHHHHH. It's the same fine amount Nickels imposed for people eating Urinal Biscuits without a permit!

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 9, 2005 02:10 PM
23. And while we are at it - we can import the other half of Hong Kong - you know -- the ones without the bucks --

We can set up socialized medicine too , eh? -- then we can all go to Idaho for medical care.

Posted by: Bill on August 9, 2005 02:27 PM
24. The really hilarious thing about all this is: Why the hell is Nickels concerned about urban sprawl?

First, you can't stop it. Second, it is outside Seattle and has nothing to do with him.

It's the same thing as Nickels running out around the country to get cities to sign on to Kyoto. It's not an issue he can do anything about and it does not do anything but make Seattle more expensive if he forces it down our throats.

Well, anyway, at least I sleep well at night knowing no man is coming into contact with a strip dancer.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 9, 2005 02:31 PM
25. You've really swerved into something now Stefan. Nickels is just trying to implement this vision; http://www.psrc.org/projects/growth/index.htm

The PSRC group is the regional agent following directives from this group via HUD;
http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/documents/agenda21/index.htm

Posted by: bigfootbob on August 9, 2005 02:33 PM
26. These hairbrained ideas only hatch in the minds of people who believe communism is a "good idea that hasn't been done right yet". In places like China and the former USSR this was forced on the population because that's the only way they could get people to do it...at the point of a gun. Either that or give away free condos. Either way, you get what you pay for.

Posted by: Scott C on August 9, 2005 02:43 PM
27. I've actually lived in an apartment complex with two small kids, and I have to say it really sucks. Older kids, perhaps, but with _small_ kids the whole idea is pretty daft.

Then there's the school and safety issues. Ick.

Posted by: Al on August 9, 2005 03:24 PM
28. "Fixing" Seattle schools means introducing competition with the city's school monopoly. Ain't gonna happen! The WEA won't allow competition.

Posted by: Vagabond on August 9, 2005 03:40 PM
29. SEATTLE - Home to the pro sports teams; Mariners, Seahawks and Sonics. Your hosts at two modern, state-of-the-art stadiums and a soon to be a more modern Key Arena. Vital waterfront with working port. Skyscrapers, the Space Needle, historic Pike Place Market and Pioneer Square. Art and culture, we've got it- PNWB, the Rep, Benaroia (sp) Hall, SAM. A new Public Library... Monorail and Lite Rail mass transit....

Doesn't that sound great! Forget about the facts:
Seattle Public Schools suck. Mono and lite rail systems, if built, won't take you anywhere you want to go, we've built two stadiums against the will of the voters, soon we'll pay for Key Arena improvements...it takes forever to get anywhere by car, homelessness (bums), hookers and junkies are everywhere. All the neighborhoods are turning to sh_t, and all of the elitist leaders have f_cking sh_t for brains and I sincerely hope they all go to H_ll after suffering long, torturous illnesses - soon.

Thanks to them for completely ruining a city I was born and raised in.

F_CK YOU NIPPLE AND SIMS!!!!

Sorry for the bad language.

Posted by: Jeffro on August 9, 2005 03:46 PM
30. Is anyone interested in heading down to the Mountlake Ale House tonight at 8:00 for a beer with McDimwit and Goldstein??? It's like the traveling circus....all the loons will be in one place.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 9, 2005 03:53 PM
31. Jeffro paints such a good a complete picture of Seattle, the only thing that I think he left out is all the money spent on improving the airport, with millions spent on art, and not a play area to be found anywhere. Pray to GOD that you never get stuck in seatac with toddlers. The closest thing that we found on our most recent flight was that someone (obviously not part of senior management) put a small backyard play climber on the southwest airlines concourse.

Posted by: Whisper on August 9, 2005 03:56 PM
32. Interested, yes. Two reasons I won't make it;

1) Don't get off work until 4:30 and I'm pretty sure that doesn't give me enough time to get there from the SODO district.

2) As per my earlier post, I may not be able to control my actions, if ya know what I mean.

Posted by: Jeffro on August 9, 2005 04:00 PM
33. Whisper-

Right-o, it's all about image.

Good to know there's a play climber on SW's concourse. To bad they'll be moving to Boeing Field. They'll probably take their monkey bars with them. Rats!

Posted by: Jeffro on August 9, 2005 04:04 PM
34. Seattle is facing a demographic black hole -- right now we have around 122,000 24-36 year olds -- but coming up is only 70,000 1 - 18 year olds -- and a substantial number of them are newly arrived non english speaking -- what is happening downtown is in line with a pipe dream of a Prof Richard Florida -- he says that if you get enough moonbats, bicycle trails, and pass special gay legislation that faster than you can say "ali-kazam" prosperity will just emerge -- he calls it the "creative class" -- wrote a book on it to, and is a real favorite of Paul Alan...

When you look at the negative demographics, lack of jobs, cost of taxes, and crumbling infrastracture -- seattle is actually a dying city --

Posted by: Lew on August 9, 2005 04:20 PM
35. Just out of curiosity, I went to Mr. Nickels' website to find out more about his family life. It would appear that he and his wife have two grown children. I don't know how anyone who raised children could think that families could be enticed to live in apartments. Hell, when we were looking for a house, we looked at cul-de-sacs rather than neighborhoods with through streets, so that our kids could play outside more safely.

This guy has shit for brains if he thinks anyone would desire to raise their kids in an apartment. Families live in apartments when they can't afford other options. Their neighborhoods are called "ghettos".

Posted by: Peggy U on August 9, 2005 04:27 PM
36. Lew-

Scary stuff. It is a dying town. Example, contrast the Gay Parade with the Torchlight Parade. One is gaining in size and popularity while the other is decreasing. When my daughter turned three, we moved to the east side and I'm glad I did before the housing went crazy. Decent schools, beautiful, safe parks, rarely any bums, and families, families, families. Trees too.

I'm of the belief that folks get a whole lot more benefit from grass between the toes, jumping off the swimming dock, riding bikes, dining on home cooked meals with the family… not gay parades, living in highrise condos, and tollerance of winos, junkies and hookers.

Maybe I'm just not sophisticated.

Posted by: Jeffro on August 9, 2005 04:39 PM
37. It is already dead -- just a whipped up dead horse - I actually used to enjoy going downtown - avoid like plague anymore - interviewed downtown a couple years ago -- so damn much human offal staggering around on the sidewalks -- downtown is so overbuilt -

Posted by: Bill on August 9, 2005 05:10 PM
38. The whole d-mned idea seems rooted in hatred of cars & the independence they offer, it seems to me.

Posted by: Bostonian on August 9, 2005 05:41 PM
39. Jeffro--not sophiticated? For wanting normalcy? ha--count me in & pop a beer for me, pal.

I recently watched a drink vomit over himself downtown at the aquarium one early Sun morning with my daughter. What a civics lesson! (yes--clear distance of hazmat fluids)

I proceeded to tell her, in no uncertain UN-p.c. terms that he was a bum and needs to get his life in order--and there are places you can go for that if you REALLY want. "This is what you DON"T want to become, Honey, and we'll make sure you don't," I said. The stench and pitiful sight did it for her.

But Jeffro, that language outburst above was insensitive but forgiven--just take my place in the Home Training Session coming soon. You can be my "fake drug test"--attend the Training & use my name--all I want is the snazzy framed certificate of completion. :)

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 9, 2005 07:09 PM
40. Seattle has no vitality, nor is it thriving, therefore "dying" probably discribes it. The powers that be just can't seem to get anything right, too busy with special interest groups and micromanaging.

So, I'm going to wander outside barefoot in the grass and watch my teen and a friend wash their horses. Politicians may be entertaining, but not as much as the suburbs on a sunny day; two wet teens, two wet horses on the lawn, a wet goat, a wet dog, and a playful little brother.

Posted by: dl on August 9, 2005 07:09 PM
41. Shark, you completely misread the Sea Times article. The Vancouver planners said the city should and could do more to attract families to downtown, as Vancouver has. There are families in many cities, in the US and elsewhere, who choose to live in urban areas (depsite having the wealth to live anywhere they want). Read the article. Sheesh.

Posted by: Bruce on August 9, 2005 07:20 PM
42. Bruce.... At what price though? You need Schools to attract families, and good schools at that. Just one example...

Posted by: Chris on August 9, 2005 07:27 PM
43. Stop it, dl--now ya got me jealous--hey--serious--enjoy! your worked for it, right? No one tossed it in your lap as you stood on a highway exit ramp with your sign and droopy-dog face; sounds like a great place to raise a family! i can just smell that 'wet dog' smell now--it's burned into anyone's memory & cherished !!

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 9, 2005 07:42 PM
44. Hey dl, you must be insensitive. Two teens with horses. Why, you should share your pasture land with tent city. Remember, they're on a sightseing tour of the east side to see where they like it the best. Don't let them overlook your neighborhood. Ronnie good guy will be grateful to you.

And jeffro says "rarely any bums". He has not yet gotten the tent city spirit. For shame.

Posted by: bwanafriend on August 9, 2005 08:04 PM
45. "Nickels thinks he can "stop urban sprawl in the region" by attracting families with children to live in downtown high-rises and building more public schools downtown.

SPRAWL = Single Family home with a yard close to schools and shopping. Home with a porch. Barbeques in the back yard. Privacy. Alternative sources of heat and energy in case of emergency (fireplace, generator, etc...)Free parking. Fruit trees, gardens....

DENSITY = Sardine style living in apartments and condominiums. Generally constructed with no alternative means for heat or cooking (no fireplaces or barbeques). At the complete mercy of chance that you will not get a noisy neighbor above, below or to the side of your unit. Parking fees in addition to rent. Condominium maintenance fees, strict by-laws, oppressive Condo-association rules....

Hmmm....Which would you choose for your family?

Posted by: Deborah on August 9, 2005 08:28 PM
46. Hey, what's this dl person doing with a lawn? Doesn't he know that you're supposed to irrevocably let the brush and weeds take over?

And what's with all this fawning over the lordly 'Vancouver Planners' as if they, and only they, know how we should order our lives? There they sit, issuing fatwas on the sort of construction to be allowed (or mandated) on land 'owned' by the peasants.

Didn't we boot England out of the country for similar high-handedness a couple hundred years ago? Is all we are allowed to revolt against nowadays confined to sexual mores and the gas tax? Sheesh indeed.

Posted by: Hank Bradley on August 9, 2005 08:44 PM
47. DENSITY = Private residence with other human beings nearby to socialize with, exchange opinions with, learn from, help, be helped by. Shopping, schools, restaurants, hundreds of other services nearby, easily reached by foot, bike, or frequent free buses.

SPRAWL = Sterile neighborhood with nothing to do but watch TV, take drugs, and play with guns. Each adult must own a car, burn fossil fuels to support Middle East terrorists, and battle traffic for the pleasure of shopping at Wal-Mart and dining at Appleby's.

OK, Deborah, the truth is somewhere between your picture and mine. And different people value different things. Let's try not to be smug, shall we?

Posted by: Bruce on August 9, 2005 09:27 PM
48. Johnh (first post in this thread) -- I'm not sure if you were trying to support Nickels's plan, but it sure looks like it. You complain about all the problems that he is trying to solve. I'm not sure what alternative you propose -- just let the city die since you don't live there anymore?

Posted by: Bruce on August 9, 2005 09:30 PM
49. You need Schools to attract families, and good schools at that. Just one example...

Yes, it takes money to make a city attractive. Fortunately, lots of people like to live in them, and they pay taxes.

Posted by: Bruce on August 9, 2005 09:35 PM
50. Bruce - You go ahead and live in Belltown, bro. Just keep CASA Latina up in your neck of the woods and don't expect me to pay for your silly monorail.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 9, 2005 10:46 PM
51. "SPRAWL = Sterile neighborhood with nothing to do but watch TV, take drugs, and play with guns. Each adult must own a car, burn fossil fuels to support Middle East terrorists, and battle traffic for the pleasure of shopping at Wal-Mart and dining at Appleby's."

Bruce...You really have to get out of the city sometime...
There is nothing *sterile* about neigborhoods.....Kids, dogs, cats, neighbors washing cars, playing ball, riding bikes...it's all very stimulating and healthy!

I've lived in single family dwellings and in apartments and condominiums! I've been a property manager for 20 condo's and managed each of their Board of Directors.... Living in a multi-family dwelling may be some esoteric fantasy of the left...but to your average person - it's oppressive! Apartments and Condo's simply bring political oppression down to your front door! Apartment management and Condo Board presidents quickly become power hungry dictators and residents become their *subjects*. I've seen this happen everytime.
When I think of apartment living - I think of the slums. I think of Section 8 transient families. I think of drug dealers in the hallways and kids growing up thinking fresh air comes from the stairwells.....If your apartment neighbor cooks something absolutey nasty..you get to smell it all night!
Apartments afford you no privacy - as your management can enter your unit on little notice and can evict you under a myriad of circumstance!
The left just loves this oppressive style of sardine living! They can control and monitor and charge you for everything you do!

Every truly *progressive* adult I know yearns for his own little house with a yard......It's the American dream!

Posted by: Deborah on August 9, 2005 11:08 PM
52. ZZZT! (alarm buzzer)
BananaLand--diversity violation re: CASA L.--Home Training Summer School for you. (only 3 days) Sorry.

Posted by: Jimmie--howya-doin on August 9, 2005 11:09 PM
53. Bingo, Deborah--
Been there; the loose live ferret pet at your door at 700am as you leave for work--trying to move in YOUR house as you kick it away; the stench of a myriad of oils and curry things frying; pests; losers with partners and semi-fluid "families;" mad ex-boyfriends;

idiots with "10,000 megawatts of sound;" my favorite? winning an "award" (actually very pricey fruit basket) simply for paying my rent on time; what the hell did THAT tell me about my "neighbors?!" you can have it--for some people, it works or it is the only option--for me? nope;

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 9, 2005 11:19 PM
54. I grew up in Woodinville, my wife and I are now raising our little girl in the same house my folks brought me back from the hospital to nearly 37 years ago (I bought this house from them years ago).

I can think of a lot of places that I might be willing to move the family to, mostly smaller towns. But I can tell you this for certain, there's would be no chance in hell that I'd ever move them to Seattle.

I work in Seattle, I have for years. I've seen the city degrade over the past decade or more. When I was younger I used to venture into Seattle for movies, shopping, see friends and dine. These days I avoid it whenever possible.

Posted by: Snake on August 9, 2005 11:46 PM
55. Let the market (people) decide where they want to live. There is a market for more housing in downtown Seattle. The Mayor is proposing to eliminate current regulations on building heights so that property owners can better serve the market. Removing regulations is generally viewed as a conservative idea.

Better to house more people in already developed areas whenever we can - it reduces government spending on new infrastructure for roads, utlities, etc. - especially if people want to live downtown, as many clearly do at a pretty high price.

Seattle is getting far better, not worse. (Even suffering from the Mayor's fantasies on the Monorail and his gold plating of the Viaduct.) There are more jobs in Seattle than ever. And the population of the city is growing - in 2000 the population of the city exceeded the 1960 population for the first time in 3 decades. Seattle's highly educated and young workforce is the envy of many other places and a driving force in the state's overall economy.

Posted by: Thor on August 10, 2005 08:08 AM
56. Thor,
Yes the population of Seattle is growing, but not at the same rate as the rest of King County, and not even close to the rate of growth in Pierce and Snohomish Counties. Here is the data from the US Census website.

Population in 2000----Growth % last 10 years
Seattle:---563,374----9.1%
King Co:---1,737,034--15.2%
Pierce Co:-700,820----19.6%
Snohomish: 606,024 30.2%

As you can clearly see, Seattle is lagging beind in population growth. There must be a reason for this.

Posted by: JustSumGuy on August 10, 2005 08:42 AM
57. Bruce-

Don't get me wrong- if you or anyone else wishes to be a dazzling young urbanite, more power to 'em. Your youthfulness makes you more capable of dodging bums in doorways and sidestepping human urine and feces on the sidewalks.

Just don't want my taxes going to this horrible idea. It seems to me that, based on the amount of housing and development that has occured throughout the region, folks have already made up their mind as to where they want to live.

Bruce writes; "Sterile neighborhood with nothing to do but watch TV, take drugs, and play with guns. Each adult must own a car, burn fossil fuels to support Middle East terrorists, and battle traffic for the pleasure of shopping at Wal-Mart and dining at Appleby's."

Keep believing this, it will keep your ilk out of our STERILE environs.

Posted by: Jeffro on August 10, 2005 08:52 AM
58. There is no shortage of demand for housing outside the city limits, and there is slim to no chance that this demand will subside merely because there's a few more apartments and condos available in the downtown vicinity. I actually like downtown Seattle, and go there for dinner or a ballgame on occasion, but there's no chance I'll ever take up residence. When I go to sleep at night, the only thing I hear is the occasional frog croaking or some crickets, and that is how it will always be.

Posted by: Palouse on August 10, 2005 12:17 PM
59. I would never give up my house for any apt. anyday!! I go around to apartment Complexes as a part of my work on a regular basis & it sure makes me appreciate my home alot more & I'm sure my family feels the same way!!

Posted by: Laurie on August 10, 2005 02:35 PM
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