August 14, 2005
Shari'a Swimtime

Mark Steyn's latest article in The Spectator, on the western liberal idiocy of celebrating the sociopathologies of foreign cultures, reminds me of a recent Seattle incident I've been meaning to blog about: government-funded Islamic apartheid. Steyn:

By pretending that all cultures are equal, multiculturalism doesn’t ‘preserve’ traditional cultures so much as sustain them in an artificial state that ensures they’ll develop bizarre pathologies and mutate into some freakish hybrid of the worst of both worlds.
Last month there was an article in the Seattle Times on a program where city public swimming pools have regularly scheduled hours for the exclusive use of Muslims: "Preserving modesty, in the pool"
It's Saturday evening, the end of a hot day, and a group of women and children have gathered at North Seattle's Meadowbrook Pool for their monthly swim ... The women and children — all Muslims — have been swimming in private once a month at Meadowbrook as part of a program organized by the North Seattle Family Center.
I made some calls and learned that the program, called "Muslim Sister Swim", is treated by the city's Meadowbrook Pool as any other private rental, which would be exempt from the city non-discrimination policy. However, the outfit that organizes and pays for the Muslim Sister Swim is the North Seattle Family Center, a unit of the Children's Home Society, a non-profit that gets most of its money from various government sources. As such, it should strictly comply with non-discrimination guidelines. Nevertheless, the Muslim Sister Swim is open exclusively to Muslims, no infidel women need apply. I asked a representative of the North Seattle Family Center to explain this, and she told me that it was to respect these immigrant women's culture.

But if there's ever a reason for taxpayer dollars to be used to support an immigrant's culture, it should be to support them in learning to shed whatever aspects of their culture are incompatible with American culture. The last thing we need to teach immigrants is to expect publicly-subsidized religious apartheid.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at August 14, 2005 10:59 AM | Email This
1. Oh boy, here we go....the bowing and scraping to Islam has begun in Seattle. this is going to get out of hand.

If we accommodated every single cultural custom of everyone who comes here, there'd never be public swims.

Posted by: Realist on August 14, 2005 11:28 AM
2. remember this is the same city that has elected Baghdad Jim 7x...

Posted by: doug on August 14, 2005 11:30 AM
3. Coming...liberals will pass a law requiring Seattle women to wear burkas, claiming it's culturally 'offensive' for local muslims to be around women who AREN'T wearing burkas. Think I'm kidding? Just watch and see how goofy these people will get.

Posted by: No Eurabia Here on August 14, 2005 11:34 AM
4. Some infidel needs to crash this swim session and start the legal process ... but don't expect the ACLU to be defending the rights of non-muslims.

Why the city of Seattle is deliberately supporting religious discrimination is beyond me. This slippery slope down the path of dhimmitude must be stopped.

Posted by: jimg on August 14, 2005 11:58 AM
5. There is a very interesting article about Sha'ria law being put into place in Europe and how the Muslims intend to accomplish the same in America. A very interesting read and it should be a clarion wakeup call that the Muslims give 'no quarter' in their quest for domination of the rest of the human race. It is either their way or no way.

Posted by: timman on August 14, 2005 01:03 PM
6. Now, let me get this straight--
Religous group M is getting money from governmental sources to fund a private swim (perhaps because they cannot fund it themselves?)
Do other religious groups (C, X, or S) also get offered the same funding?
If not, isn't this religious discrimination?

Oh, but wait...I forgot! This isn't religion, it is merely *culture!* After all, we are multi-cultural, and we have to respect everybody's culture as equal. Oh, well, that's all right then. Carry on!

Posted by: Pseudotsuga on August 14, 2005 01:47 PM
7. appalling use of government funds to treat one "religion" as special. but the boyscouts get shot down at every turn when they try to even use a school for meetings.
just when i thought the idiots in seattle couldn't be anymore stupid...they are!
culture my a$$........

Posted by: christmasghost on August 14, 2005 02:55 PM
8. timman and all: there are awful stories coming out from of all places Scandinavia about huge influxes of Muslims who are then committing crimes against non-muslim women at alarming rates. Of course, the liberal government there is brushing off the news, as though it's no big. They coddle Islamic radicals, just like libs here do. It is an alarming growing problem that can never be allowed to happen here. Seattle is at risk for it because it is run by radical leftists who don't 'get it'.

Posted by: No Eurabia Here on August 14, 2005 03:05 PM
9. Something is beingoverlooked here- the entire premise of a Muslim-only swim isn't simply that Islam forbids swimming with non-Muslims- it forbids it because non-Muslims are unclean.

This amounts- quite literally- to taxpayers funding the continued religious bigotry of Mulims.

Posted by: LC TripleNeckSteel on August 14, 2005 03:33 PM
10. I have to wonder why America always bows down to the minority, those few that think they need more rights than everyone else. This is America, you want to live here then you have to learn to go by our laws, or go back to where you came from be best for America and your taxdollars

Posted by: Bob on August 14, 2005 03:34 PM
11. Which park and what day is reserved for stoning to death female rape victims?

Posted by: DMFD on August 14, 2005 03:40 PM
12. One of my predictions (and I hope I'm wrong, but...) is that America will have to go and bail Europe's butt out once more, just like in WWII. Only this time it will be against Islamo-fascism. This really WILL be the mother of all wars.

Posted by: No Eurabia Here on August 14, 2005 03:40 PM
13. Where's the separation of church/state crowd -- oh - excuse me -- islam isn't a church it IS a CULT of involuntary enslavement enforced by death threat, extortion and an extreme level of intimidation -- last I hear the boxcutters will be allowed back on the airlines -- looks like Bush's ability to hold off another terrorist attack in US has worked too well and we gotta give them an 'IN' --

Posted by: Bill on August 14, 2005 03:43 PM
14. Actually - this whole islamic terrorist thing fits hand-in-glove with the standard DemocRAT/liberal agenda of pandering to criminals and immigrants in order to keep the demo voter rolls pumped up -

Posted by: Bill on August 14, 2005 03:49 PM
15. So, religious-based bigotry is sanctioned by Seattle's taxpayers.

Under that logic, a Klan group could accept taxpayer dollars and sponsor a "whites-only" swim, because that group holds that poolside mixed-race towel-snapping is equally "unclean."

Posted by: Bill Peschel on August 14, 2005 03:52 PM
16. First, I would suggest y'all read the Seattle Times article in full before commenting. Even groups like the YMCA (look up what the abbreviation stands for) are sponsoring such swims.

Second, use of public facilities (particularly schools) by religious groups is quite common (e.g. the Antioch Baptist Church at Lake Washington High School, from which Ken Hutcherson spews his homophobic venom). You were notably silent about the fact that the Rainier Beach pool sets aside time for Orthodox Jewish women. Are they OK for such nominal public subsidies, but Muslim women are not?

Finally, consider this gem: "But if there's ever a reason for taxpayer dollars to be used to support an immigrant's culture, it should be to support them in learning to shed whatever aspects of their culture are incompatible with American culture."

Are you going French on us now, Stefan? Do you propose to be the arbiter of customs and practices that are "compatible with American culture"? Where do we need to apply for approval?

Posted by: bartelby on August 14, 2005 03:53 PM
17. i really like the idea of righteously angry protestors stopping by in their thongs and banana hammocks during muslim-only swim time, armed with legal "briefs" showing the complete and utter illegality of this whole sorry affair. not leave until the thing has blown up into a full-on news media circus.

anyway that's what I'D do.

Seattle's best, get on it!!

Posted by: cali white bear on August 14, 2005 03:59 PM
18. i really like the idea of righteously angry protestors stopping by in their thongs and banana hammocks during muslim-only swim time, armed with legal "briefs" showing the complete and utter illegality of this whole sorry affair. not leave until the thing has blown up into a full-on news media circus.

anyway that's what I'D do.

Seattle's best, get on it!!

Posted by: cali white bear on August 14, 2005 03:59 PM
19. When will we see Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton leading a march on Seattle because Blacks are banned from swiming with Muslims?
This is the same type of bigotry that the civil rights movement fought so hard an long to do away with.

Jesse, Al. Step up!

Posted by: Yanke Diver on August 14, 2005 04:01 PM
20. When will we see Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton leading a march on Seattle because Blacks are banned from swiming with Muslims?
This is the same type of bigotry that the civil rights movement fought so hard an long to do away with.

Jesse, Al. Step up!

Posted by: Yanke Diver on August 14, 2005 04:01 PM
21. They want privacy, let them build their own pool on their own property.

Posted by: erp on August 14, 2005 04:01 PM
22. My Chasidic and Orthodox Jewish friends are also concerned about modesty in public swimming pools. Why don't we make it the Muslim & Jewish Sister swim? Now THAT would be taxpayer money well spent :).

Posted by: raven on August 14, 2005 04:16 PM
23. My Chasidic and Orthodox Jewish friends are also concerned about modesty in public swimming pools. Why don't we make it the Muslim & Jewish Sister swim? Now THAT would be taxpayer money well spent :).

Posted by: raven on August 14, 2005 04:16 PM
24. If anyone has more than xenophobic rants to add to the dialogue it would be most welcome.

Posted by: bartelby on August 14, 2005 04:17 PM
25. Bartelby,

Just a couple things....those groups pay for the use of the public place, not the public paying as is the case with the swimfest and these same women have no right to vote or have an education by Islamic law...I guess americans are too liberal.

Posted by: Dengle on August 14, 2005 04:23 PM
26. Thank you Bill!!!! Do you think the Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. would get funding for their swim parties? On the contrary. There would be big nasty articles in the PI and Times ridiculing any Christian orgaization for even asking. Talk about blatant discrimination!!!

Posted by: mel on August 14, 2005 04:41 PM
27. Bartelby:

"Xenophobia denotes a phobic attitude toward strangers or of the unknown and comes from the Greek words ξένος (xenos), meaning "foreigner," "stranger," and φόβος (phobos), meaning "fear.""

The Muslims are a well known culture that can hardly be referenced a 'Unknown' or 'strangers'. The fear is we do know what is going to happen unless they as a religion, acquiesce.

Open you eyes and see the truth!

Posted by: timman on August 14, 2005 04:44 PM
28. I wonder why not witty retorts from JDB... We know that a-hole wants Amer-abia.

Posted by: doug on August 14, 2005 04:44 PM
29. Bartelby, do the Orthodox Jewish women pay for private time themselves, or do the get government subsidies for this? The issue here isn't that people like to pay to swim in private, the issue is that government funds are bing used for this.

Posted by: Michael on August 14, 2005 05:12 PM
30. PC Liberals can't defend it because it conflicts with their self-image and ideology. Like much of liberalism, it remains politely ignored. It's more important to pat yourself on the back and congratulate yourself on being soooooo enlightened and sooooo "progressive" than to question the vile underpinnings of your belief system. I once called a person "friend" who tried to explain away such garbage by asserting the West had no right to judge certain cultures because they had been sooooooooooo oppressed by the west. Needless to say, the CREEP was a self-proclaimed ultra-feminist. ANY abortion was okay and beyond any possible question in this creep's universe, and questioning any civilization's predisposition towards keeping women veiled, barefoot and pregnant was out of bounds. In his world, the West is responsible for Saudi Arabia and all will become good when the PFLP faction in Gaza dominates the Arab world. He was "with" the progressive faction in Damascus.

Posted by: Attila on August 14, 2005 05:13 PM
31. Why not, we have major politicos like Kerry and Bush wooing the hispanic vote by campaigning in Spanish and subverting immigration laws to pander to ignorant criminals, why not do this too, but on a national scale?

Posted by: Jake on August 14, 2005 05:31 PM
32. You were notably silent about the fact that the Rainier Beach pool sets aside time for Orthodox Jewish women.

I live in a community with a large number of Orthodox Jews. Indeed the local public swimming facilities do accomodate Jewish concerns about sexual modesty, so they schedule separate single sex swim sessions for males and females. The sessions are not restricted to members of one religion, as is the case with the Muslim Sister Swim. Nothing in the Seatle Times article indicates that the Rainer Beach Pool sessions are restricted to Jews.

As a matter of fact, the Times article mentioned "Orthodox Jewish women, who observe their own dress customs". The only Jewish dress customs relevant to swimwear is that even the most modest one-piece woman's swimsuit would be considered immodest clothing when worn around men, hence the need for single sex sessions. A women only session would satisfy that "custom" without having to restrict it to Jewish women only.

Posted by: ronnie schreiber on August 14, 2005 05:45 PM
33. Amazing! The same asshats who would go to court in a New York minute to sue the pants off the city of North Seattle for displaying a creche or printing "Merry Christmas" on cards or opening a city council meeting with prayer ending in (horror of horrors!) in the Name of the LORD Jesus Christ, etc, etc, are amazingly SILENT regarding this egregious flouting of Federal Law on the one hand and the lickspittle pandering to one particular (non-Judaeo-Christian) religious group on the other.

The liberal lawyers for the ACLU will be surprised to see their own throats cut if sharia law is ever finally recognized as the law of the land in the (once and former) land of the free and the home of the brave.

In essence, the ACLU types by their own actions may actually be expediting their own deaths at the hands of the Jihadists.

Life is full of delicious ironies.

Posted by: gunjam on August 14, 2005 06:00 PM
34. The solution to this dilemma is to sue the asses of the city and county for discrimination.

Any takers?

Posted by: ERNurse on August 14, 2005 06:09 PM
35. The pool is right ... a private party should be private. As described, the pool is simply renting the pool during its non-operating hours, presumably under the same terms and conditions as it would rent to the Boy Scouts, the Rotarians or the 1st Baptist Church.

Private funds, from informed, willing donors, could legally fund this activity.

The problem then, is the partially public funding of the organization sponsoring the activity.

Public funding of a "muslims only" activity is clearly inappropriate under the current state of the law. The only thing that may need to be done to make this activity legal, however, is for the Children's Home Society to segregate its public funds and activities from its privately funded activities.

As described the funding comes from a sub-unit of a private organization that receives partly public and partly private funding. Presumably, there is some public function that this organization performs that justifies the expenditure of tax money.

I don't believe that the acceptance of public funds for public purposes should subject a private organization to public control in all aspects of its life. For example, a church that accepts public resources to help feed the hungry shouldn't be subject non-discrimination hiring rules, etc.

Posted by: Bin2Baghdad on August 14, 2005 06:10 PM
36. What is sad is that the feminists in Seattle don't question anything that is happening in the Muslim culture or religion. How many of those women are willingly keeping themselves covered? If given the choice, would they adopt Western dress?

Whenever I see a woman with a scarf on her head, I have to wonder if she is displaying her own sense of modesty, or if she is afraid of ostricism from her community if she doesn't.

We can't afford to let Sharia law get a foothold in this country. Everyone here is covered by US law, not by some perversion of someone's moral standard.

Posted by: Janet S on August 14, 2005 06:34 PM
37. Stefan,

You nailed this one right on the head. The issue is not one of religion, but of multiculturalism. The false idea that all cultures are equal.

There's a reason why Western Civ has flourished and Eastern Civ is still in the dark ages. Ideas matter. Reason matters. Any culture that doesn't embrace reason as we do here in our Western culture, is doomed to fail.

Multiculturalism is subsidy for failed cultures.

These people should not be allowed to swim on racist grounds on the public dime.

Posted by: Jeff B. on August 14, 2005 06:51 PM
38. It's no accident the muslim terrorist front CAIR's HQ is exactly one block away.

Posted by: Robert Z. on August 14, 2005 07:04 PM
39. The community from which these women come from has no money to fund a private pool but rest assure that they have money to give to funds that are raised for religious- terror-welfare organizations like Hamas. The Palestinian terror operates the same way: taking UNNRA's money for almost 60n years to live and use monies given by individual countries for development, for terror. When would these useful idiotic narcissistic self-righteousness liberals learn? Never-- because they are mentally ill! The so easy to recognize L syndrome is yet to be defined and incorporate into the next edition of the DSM [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders]. (Instead, this wish probably would define me as delusional;-)

Posted by: Hawaiian cocNUT on August 14, 2005 07:09 PM
40. Seems like “culture” is being used as a Trojan Horse in this case, with North Seattle Muslims taking full advantage of the liberal dogma that everything possible must be done to accommodate other “cultures”, even to the point of giving them “special considerations” over the existing mainstream culture. When “culture” and “religion” are inextricably intertwined, however – as in the case of portions of the Muslim population that adhere to Sha’ria law – this willingness to accommodate other cultures can now be exploited by Muslims playing the “culture” card (with the religion component downplayed, hidden on the unexposed flip side of the same card), and get oh-so-accommodating liberal government officials to implement the very thing I suspect those officials would adamantly avow they stand most vociferously against – the state/government sanctioned bestowing of unique and special privileges for adherents of one religion over those of other religions. Pretty ironic, actually – it chucks church/state separation right out the window, all in the name of “cultural diversity”.

Posted by: Wascally Wabbit on August 14, 2005 07:12 PM
41. I think the shark is dead wrong. If this were a bunch of blacks vying for special status based on a three-hundred years gone "tradition," NOT!...

But these are recent immigrants. Can't we at least give them a little space for comfort?

Maybe they will assimilate faster if they don't feel threatened.

Posted by: Just passing through on August 14, 2005 07:25 PM
42. Maybe they'll assimilate faster if we don't enable and accommodate cultural balkanization and government-sanctioned actions that serve to perpetuate the isolation and separation of this particular "culture" from everyone else.

Posted by: Wascally Wabbit on August 14, 2005 07:36 PM
43. This monthly celebration of multi-culturalism is also being sponsored by the very same gender feminists who belief they are oppressed by an American patriarchy.

As Phyllis Schlafly says: "Don't ever expect that a feminist will be consistent."

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on August 14, 2005 08:37 PM
44. SEE? Bartleby couldn't be more predictable. We will continue to see--from the very people who wrongly cry that christians want to establish a theocracy here--liberals defending the VERY people who really DO want to establish theorcracy here. He will be among the first to vote sharia law into existence here.
But we will not stand by and let it happen.
Bartleby fails to discern the fact that Antioch Church and orthodox jewish women are NOT calling for jihad against America and the murder of everyone here on this blog. Oh, and Bartleby, orthodox jewish women are not into the whole homosexual agenda, just as ken Hutcherson isn't. Does that bother you??

Posted by: No Eurabia Here on August 14, 2005 08:40 PM
45. W.W. ...

They just got here, dipsh*t... Don't you think a litle adjustment lag is understandable?

Posted by: Just Passing Thru on August 14, 2005 08:45 PM
46. Islam is a false religion of violence, death and unspeakable cruelty. We accommodate it at our own peril. Better to destroy it by forcing Muslims to assimilate into western society. Those that fail to assimilate must be expinged from society. Remember, error has no rights.

Posted by: Marco the Triumphalistic Papist on August 14, 2005 08:54 PM
47. Seattle's liberals always have, and always will be, more concerned with appearances than substance. Otherwise, they would be saying Welcome, and now that you're here, you are no worse and no better than the rest of us, so you need to either sink or swim, just like all the rest of us. Instead, they just pander so that they can be included on some ridiculous list of "most liberal" cities.

Posted by: katomar on August 14, 2005 09:19 PM
48. Remainder L. Simon agrees with you. He thinks these are creatures from another planet.

Posted by: Jay Pierpont Flathead on August 14, 2005 09:27 PM
49. Don't equate the burka set with Orthodox Jews -- Judaism, the Hebrew Bible and the Jewish world view of man and G-d formed the basis along with our Christian Tradition for our Bill of Rights. Jewish patriots who fought in the Revolutionary War and Jewish businessmen helped the colonies stay afloat financially. The freedoms we enjoy in our society are perfectly natural to the observant Jew...So if Grandma wants to swim old-style it is not to exclude non-Jewish women --just men.

Something else I have wondered about: Muslim women swimming separated like this also could hide signs of abuse from the public...

Posted by: Lew on August 14, 2005 10:16 PM
50. The pool can rent private time to any organization for legal activities, this is upheld by law and common sense.

But, funding with public or taxpayer dollars is a problem. How many times have Washington lawmakers squashed any hope of School Vouchers, because taxpayer dollars cannot be used to fund anything that crosses the "religion" line? If this money cannot fund education because it might be religious, why can it fund religious swimming?

If the swim time is privately funded, who cares, as long as their reservations are given the same consideration as all other customers.

Posted by: dl on August 14, 2005 10:25 PM
51. "They just got here, dipsh*t... Don't you think a litle adjustment lag is understandable?" --

How do you know that? There are many American born Muslims. Is someone checking Green Cards?

Posted by: Michael on August 14, 2005 10:28 PM
52. I spent the day today with my family at the Santa Cruz Boardwalk, a local amusement park. Among the casually dressed crowd I noticed (at different times) two women who stood out for their obviously "Muslim" garb - long flowing robes with head covering. They looked like they had been teleported from the streets of Teheran.

Now it was a cool, overcast day so maybe they weren't hot or uncomfortable in their clothes. But what struck me was that the men they were with were had no special dress at all. They looked just like the rest of the crowd and there was no way you could have told what religion they were or what country they were from.

What this said to me was that this "modest" dress for Muslim women is not about religion, or "culture". It's about control.

Posted by: Gary Rosen on August 14, 2005 10:41 PM
53. Any private group who reserves the public pool's time - should pay for that time with private dollars..period.

That should be a *no-brainer* requirement.

The Liberals simply can't have it both ways. They can't condemn the use of tax dollars for one culture/religion and condone the use of tax dollars for another. They created a law against this practice!

Posted by: Deborah on August 14, 2005 10:51 PM
54. To the "They just got here, let's give em' a little space" fools. Yeah, we did give Mohammed Atta and the other terrorists involved in 9/11 a little space, and look what happened.

This country was much better off when we had Ellis Island in full operation. So, you just got here? Whoop dee do, so did everyone else. Get in line for your privledge to enter America, and then once you get in the door, fine share some of your traditions with us, but become a part of our tradition too.

The whole "I'm going to continue life in the Bhurka in the US" is really laughable. The Bhurka represents the oppression and relegation that Muslim woman have suffered under for thousands of years. Nothing could be a bigger slap to the greatness that is the US, than for Muslim women to outwardly display the symbols of oppression, all the while living in the one place that has truly liberated people from this kind of oppression.

Posted by: Jeff B. on August 14, 2005 10:53 PM
55. I wonder if those bathers realise that infidel kids pee in the pool.

Anyway, on a more serious note.

My take on this is simply that these are women and children, using a public pool and not being exposed to the lookie lous.
I don't care if they are Muslim, Jewish, WASP's or any other ethnicity.
I happen to think that if the pool is public, they should pay for private usage but I don't see anything wrong in wanting to let women and children be away from learing eyes.
100 years ago,in this country, you didn't see a woman expose her ankle.
I am not suggesting that we should become prudes and revert to the turn of the century styles any more than I am saying the Islamic culture should drag us back to the 8th century. What I am saying is our society has degraded to the point that women wear butt floss in public and it doesn't phase some people.
There was a time here when woman didn't swim with men in this country too. If this is about modesty and not unclean infidels, then let the pay and use the pool privately.
As far as mulitculturalism, I feel that when America stopped being a melting pot and became a salad bowl, we lost all hope of ever being a truly united states.
I for one say english only, study and swear allegience to our constitution and become an "American" ( no disclaimers such as African, Mexican, Arab or Asian )
This is our country, it isn't the liberals, it isn't the conservatives, it is yours and mine. Why ? We were born here or we swore and oath to defend it and the constitution against all threats, foreign or domestic ( insert McDermott,Palosi,Kennedy,Kerry,Answer, Moore, and a host of others we need to defend it against domestically)

If we allow those who refuse to melt in, to preach/teach hatred and jihad, we deserve what we get. If people are stupid enough to allow the ACLU and other advocates to strip us of our culture, religion and heritage while defending the rights of people that have no better sense than to teach their young to blow themselves to pieces,once again,there is no one to blame but us.
The day is coming in this country where we will either wake up,close our borders and define our real enemies, then remove them by force if neccessary, or we will be like Israel and be dealing with bomb belts and homicide bombers daily.
PS: If you are wondering why we weren't screaming about other groups getting the pool privleges, it's probably because we didn't know.

Posted by: Jim L on August 14, 2005 11:35 PM
56. The PC crowd will adapt willingly to creeping sharia if it's framed properly.

A "study" showing that Muslim women have lower skin cancer rates than infidel females would be helpful. Environmental consciousness, holistic health, solidarity with oppressed nonWestern cultures...who could resist? And as with secondhand smoke, there's a pretext to impose restrictions on everybody else.

Maybe the cultural breakthrough will be a poster of Gaia in a burka, protecting herself from the oppressive radiation of the patriarchal Sun. On sale first in Burkaley California.

Posted by: gs on August 15, 2005 12:09 AM
57. quote:

As far as mulitculturalism, I feel that when America stopped being a melting pot and became a salad bowl, we lost all hope of ever being a truly united states.
I for one say english only, study and swear allegience to our constitution and become an "American" ( no disclaimers such as African, Mexican, Arab or Asian )

Jim, you hit the nail on the head. Started in the late 60's and early 70's.

It is the root of most of the societal problems we are having and definately will be the death of our country.

That is where the fight will be.

Posted by: Elmo on August 15, 2005 03:21 AM
58. Canadian ex-Muslim here

We had this same situation in London (Ontario). The Muslim women in the community wanted swimming, BADLY, because that was about the only exercise they got AND they could take their kids since many of the fathers were absent from this function of the family ie minding the kids.

The public pool offered swimming to women only 'mixed' with non-Muslim women. They also put up a curtain on the windows for privacy.

I wanted to advertise the swimming in the local mosque's newsletter but a newcomer to Canada from Egypt, a professor at the University, refused to put in an advertisement because "HE didn't think the BOARD (all male members) wanted Muslim women mixing with non-Muslim women.

We had the same situation at the University, except they offered private pool time that was totally funded by the Muslim women ie they paid $3 per swim to cover the pool rental.

Prior to this, myself and a younger student from the Muslim Student Association went to a Human Rights officer to inquire about what services that the University could provide.

We were told we could fund it ourselves or provide swimming 'for women only' that included ALL women on campus.

I brought up the question about protests to make sure the young student knew what to expect. The human rights officer confirmed that this was a possibility.

When asked about the mixed swim that the University would offer itself without the Muslim women having to pay, the young student refused to mix with non-Muslim women because those women could be lesbian, or they may show their 'aura' (their body) ie wearing a normal bathing suit.

I'm sure all the non-Muslim women would have respected the Muslim women, especially if they chose to segregate themselves from a male/female swim. There are also many Muslim women do NOT want to have any segregation.

The men (and many women) in the community insisted the women keep seperate from non-Muslims (as Sharia law states in many clauses in the Quran)but they or the board offered no funding to pay for private costs.

Yet they willingly gave money to a Lebanese man who travelled from Lebanon, who did a khutbah (sermon) at Mosque during Jumah (friday prayer) and mentioned in Arabic the Palestinians and Israel several times during his 45 minute speech.

Then in his 20 minute English translation, the money he stated the money was for 'their gymnasium, parking lot etc etc'.

This raised the ire of more progressive Muslim women that were there that day. Our mosque was pleading from our Muslims to give to their own gym and parking lot because they were ready to get sued for not paying their bills.

This foreign visitor was not making a request for gymnasium money. What would Palestine and Israel have to do with basketball or asphalt?

After not quite 2 years, I was getting sick of the bigotry against Jews ie I was told when I converted, making sure I wasn't going to be 'taught' to hate anyone, I was assured that I wasn't only that we, as Muslims, were to "be cautious around/with Jews" ie not exactly sure what that meant but it was assumed not to believe them. In anycase there is much mention about this in the Quran (Sharia)

By this time, I had quite enough. In response to the professor's deliberate discrimination I was removing my hijab in protest of his and the attitude of the community.

I was told to "watch what I say". Although I didn't ask him "or what", I took it as a threat.

Re: xenophobia...I think it could be said that Muslims are the xenophobes because they are afraid of losing their Islam if they mix with non-Muslims, not because they are dirty per se, just that non-Muslims are not pious, according to their standards.

As for swimming for orthodox Jewish women, I know of quite a few centres that are funded solely by the Jewish community that serves its members - no others are allowed as far as I know.

(Sorry for the long post)

There's alot more to this story on my blog

Posted by: habamusrodentum on August 15, 2005 04:36 AM
59. Calm down, guys. It's once a month and it is a private rental, even if there is some indirectly public money. I think you are right on the general principle but wrong on the immediate issue. If we get all crazy over something like this, which a lot of people will think is a reasonable thing, it just undermines our credibility on the larger questions.

Posted by: Mike on August 15, 2005 07:26 AM
60. I think this thread reached its apex with the mention of infidel kids peeing in the pool ;'}

Posted by: alphabet soup on August 15, 2005 07:52 AM
61. So let's see... how many religions are there in the US? Let's just assume it's around 50. So are they prepared to have 50 different swim nights for every religion? No? Why not? Why is it just Muslim women that need this special treatment? I'm sure there are some other religions out there that need "special treatment" so as not to have to co-mingle with the infidels. What's next? Draining the water in the pool before they can swim? After all, there's infidel pollution in that water. How difficult it must be to be a Muslim in this bastion of infidels. Makes you wonder why they choose to come here.

Posted by: Scott C on August 15, 2005 08:15 AM
62. Just drop a few bacon bits in there --even the fake ones-- and let em see you do it.
That'll take care of it.

Posted by: Amused by liberals on August 15, 2005 08:17 AM
63. Scott C -- There is no wondering as to why they are, have been, and will be coming here -- catch on people -- the Universities have been full of these 'ambassadors' since the early 60's and before -- foreign students getting their US taxpayer subsidized education - so they can go back to raise their countries and people up outta da primordial ooze - what BS - 90% have stayed here - those that had to go back have pulled every string within reach to weasel their way back --- don't forget or lose sight of the fact that Japan's admiral Yamamoto was US educated.

Posted by: Bill on August 15, 2005 09:16 AM
64. One of the interchangeable Seattle papers today has a fawning article (what else?) about what a great bunch of Yankee Doodles the local Muslims are. The only thing missing is the word "patriotism."
One other observation: even the local media trash no longer tries to convince Americans that "jihad" means a peaceful inner struggle against sin.

Posted by: Bleepless on August 15, 2005 11:41 AM
65. Why is it that we are making all the concessions? I would have thought that it is the immigrant that should adapt to America, not the other way round. It is madness to treat Muslims as special cases. When does Islam bend to other faiths?

Let us face the truth, Islam is a backward, intolerant culture, that has nothing in common with liberal American civilization. Islam does not accept our liberal way of life, and we should not accept their attempts to maintain their ways here.

What are they here for anyway? Obviously not to become Americans and assimilate into society.

Posted by: Shipwrecked on August 15, 2005 12:04 PM
66. Virginia Tech is providing gender-segregated classes to visiting Saudi students.

Quote from Roanoke Times: "Tech officials said administrators from the Saudi university separated the sexes to mirror classroom settings at their home institution, which operates separate campuses for men and women."

The alliance between liberals and Islamists is continually amazing, as is their inconsistency. They bend over backwards to accommodate gender-segregation in classes, but will force female Christian students to LIVE in the same dorm rooms with male students.

Posted by: Shannon K on August 15, 2005 01:01 PM
67. It is ABSOLUTELY relevant that public money funds the organization that funds this swim session. Think of it like this, say a publicly funded nonprofit organization gave money to a private after school program for Muslim boys. Then you come to find out that after school program taught the boys that Israel was an illegitimate country and espoused hatred toward Jews. Still think that publicly funded organization should be able to fund that after school program?

Once public money becomes involved, the activity is no longer private (as the Boy Scouts have found out). And therefore, discrimination (in any form) is not permitted.

Posted by: Palouse on August 15, 2005 02:10 PM
68. Do bomb belts float?

This would be the perfect place to find out

Posted by: Julio on August 15, 2005 02:17 PM
69. "Calm down, guys. It's once a month and it is a private rental, even if there is some indirectly public money."

Because Mike, if we give them an inch - they take a foot. Give 'em a foot, and they take a yard ... and so on.

That's precisely why we need to remain vigilant. Always. It's their m.o., and always has been. It's what they've done for centuries, and if we continually look past the small things - eventually we won't be able address the bigger ones because by then it'll be too late.

History can teach us many valuable lessons if we simply pay attention, and not repeat the mistakes of others. It's that simple, really.

Posted by: jimg on August 15, 2005 02:22 PM
70. Bartelby:

Is this an example of "homophobic venom"?

With regards to homosexuality, he states that "The jurists of Islam have held different opinions concerning the punishment for this abominable practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for zina, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements." - Yusuf al-Quaradawi The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam, p. 165.

Posted by: GenghisKhan on August 15, 2005 02:31 PM
71. Appropriate response? Be the last person in the pool before the Muslims arrive and recycle a 6 pack of HIGH alcohol beer through your bladder as a welcome gesture

Posted by: George on August 15, 2005 02:44 PM
72. Muslim Sister's Swim.

I, too, asked questions, by phone.

From the author of the original Seattle Times article: in so many words, "What's the big deal?"

From the program director herself (Cheryl):

"This is not just for immigrants, or Muslims, but is open to all women."

So, I suggested, why not rename it 'Women's Swim Night', and solve the problem.

Here's the deal.

Muslim women requested this ongoing event and are the folks who named it. And the North Seattle Family Center is trying very hard to accommodate THAT community's CULTURAL need for modesty (even though she said it is open to ALL women).

And the agency WILL NOT drop 'Muslim' from the title.

The director is both adamant, and arrogantly insistent that a Muslim woman's need for modesty is based NOT upon the religion of Islam, but rather upon the CULTURE from where she came.


Does the director actually believe that a white woman revert from Kalamazoo's understanding of modesty is based upon the same 'cultural' background as a woman born into a Muslim family from Karachi?

This is, without question, a case of brain-dead, booger eating morons using taxpayer money to accomodate the religious beliefs of a particular religion.

And they've been caught.

Posted by: PRCS on August 15, 2005 03:09 PM
73. "They just got here, dipsh*t... Don't you think a litle adjustment lag is understandable?" --

When you adopt attitudes and policies that fail to encourage assimilation, and/or concurrently establish precedents that enable cultural separation, what you get is: little to no assimilation, and continued cultural separation.

A "little adjustment lag" tends to turn into a big "adjustment lag", and then calcifies into a permanenct "adjustment lag". The Europeans have been pretty generous in accommodating and even encouraging continued separation, rather than assimilation, by their Muslim minorities. After all, what’s a little "lag" time, eh? And 30, 40 years later, what do they have to show for it? Entrenched, growing, and definitely unassimilated Muslim enclaves, unappreciative and even hostile to their host nations, that pose a real threat to the long-term sustainment of the very cultures that initially welcomed, or at least tolerated, their now-no-longer-so-recently-arrived immigrant “guests”.

Not a road we want to go down on this side of the ocean, IMHO.

Posted by: Wascally Wabbit on August 15, 2005 07:06 PM
74. Parasites - all

Posted by: Bill on August 15, 2005 07:14 PM
75. After observing the beauty of the burqua,I can only guess what the bathing suits look like.

Posted by: Zyklopz on August 15, 2005 07:52 PM
76. I wonder how appreciative the muslims would be of Infidel urine in the pool?

Posted by: brian on August 15, 2005 10:41 PM
77. If the person who thinks a Seattle public pool setting aside time for the exclusive use by Muslims is acceptable, why not allow the KKK to also set aside time for the exclusive use of whites? Muslim women don't just not swim with males, they do not swim with us infidels -even if women- because we are considered unclean, as explained in the Koran. That is why it is for their exclusive use, not a women only time. Unlike the public pool in my area which has specific time for women only, men only and teenagers only. The KKK believes non-whites to be unclean as well -the same underlying reason that Muslim women and children are given exclusive use of the pool. Bigotry is bigotry -and Seattle is promoting and upholding religious bigotry for one group when they would never tolerate it, much less allow them exclusive use of their pool, to any other group. Isn't it time we started demanding that "sensitivity" be a two-way street in this country? If Muslims want a society which makes their religion dominant over all others, forces non Muslims to abide by the tenets of THEIR religion -go live in a Muslim country. I will never bow down to Islam in MY country.

Posted by: Kate on August 16, 2005 02:19 AM
78. When are we going to get smart and send the stupid muslims back to sit in the dirt and sand of thier home countries? Or better yet, round them up and put them in concentration camps? They hate us! They call us the Infidels and want our deaths which they openly call for! They already killed 3000 of us on 9/11/01! Have we forgotten? Do you realize they are also in Mountlake Terrace? That's the headquarters of the Palestinian Chronicle which spews hate against Christians and Jews. The cowards have a PO Box. Probably because if they put the physical address on their website, someone would accidentally blow their office up!
We've got to stand up for America and quit allowing this discrimination against Christians and Jews and misuse of government funds!

Posted by: P&E on August 16, 2005 06:59 PM
79. this has to be the most ridiculous story l have ever read. practicing your culture is acceptable but not when it entrenches the rights of others. these people want others to be sensitive of how they look and behave, shouldn't they do the same, just a thought! they are not willing to meet other cultures half way, is their way or the highway, well to them l say, you could always return to your country of origin.

Posted by: juana moreau on August 16, 2005 09:51 PM
80. wonder what the aclu and jessie jackson would say if we were to have sign that reads "white only, pool rules"

Posted by: jan from on August 16, 2005 10:10 PM
81. Recently exchanged emails with the reporter on this topic. He didn't have time to debate the issue. In Iraq we fight a war to protect our society and people and to free Musilums. In Seattle, a different war is being waged to destroy our society. The cultural war is not new, it has been fought yesterday and today and for decades of yesterdays and todays. Europe is caving and we are following. The war is being fought in the name of multiculturalism or sensitivity or diversification. By what ever name it is a confusing war. Our sense of fairness becomes a weapon more powerful then most because of the lasting damage. Our society's fabric is torn apart. Schools require children to "act" as muslims for a day. Are the children taught the dark side of the religion (cultural). I think not. Are the children required to act as christians. The answer to that question is obvious. Remember it is the "winter holiday" not Christmas. Judaism receives the same treatment as christainity. We are being required to abandoned our cultural, our language and borders. Excuse me but what is left. A country is defined by a common culture, language and border. Absent one or more of the defining foundations and the country ceases to exist as we know it. Ask yourself what has changed over the past 50 years, 40 years, 30 years, 20 years. It is obvious to seniors, I'm 63, that cultural changes were made, languages were added (count the languages used to print the past ballots) borders are not protected. Defining foundations are crumbling.
Sad isn't it. Who will free us in the years to come?

Posted by: snuffy on August 17, 2005 03:51 PM
82. It starts and ends with immigration.

If you are upset, join Federation for American Immigration Reform at and help hold politicians accountable for poor legislation and law enforcement.

Posted by: saxa on August 18, 2005 09:20 AM
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