I attended Ron Sims' press conference this morning: "Executive calls for all-mail voting"
King County Executive Ron Sims today announced he is proposing to change King County elections to an all-mail ballot system.So I won my own contest and everybody gets to share the boobie prize of all-mail voting. In a nutshell, mail voting admits so much subjectivity, fraud and human error into the process that it should not be trusted as a legitimate measure of the will of an electorate in a close contest --
I'll put together a more detailed critique of all-mail voting later. But as I've argued for months, mail-voting (and provisional ballots cast by mail voters) were responsible for the vast majority of the errors, fraud, double-votes, postmark issues, signature problems, voter intent interpretation problems, etc. in the elections that I've examined.
Sims and Councilmembers Ferguson and Patterson touted the efficiency and cost-saving, but they also had to acknowledge that they don't yet have solutions to the security and integrity issues; that no jurisdiction in the country of comparable size to King County has ever attempted all-mail voting; they haven't selected a vendor and they have no idea how much this is actually going to cost. It would have been more prudent for these folks to announce that they would explore the idea and then come up with some solutions to the problems and cost-benefit analysis. Unfortunately, they've committed themselves (and the citizens) to this concept without understanding the very serious consequences and ramifications for the public's confidence in government. Pretty foolish and irresponsible, if you ask me.
One interesting moment from the press conference: Ron Sims confessed that he is a regular reader and fan of Sound Politics[audio]!
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 20, 2005 12:00 PM | Email ThisIt figures. They *think* it will be more efficient and they *think* it will cost less. That's good enough for them.
Of course, the most important factor, the most sacred part of the republic -- preserving the integrity of the vote -- isn't important enough for them to have a plan for it yet.
I'd call Ron Sims a scumbag, but that's an insult to self-respecting scumbags out there. He's more like a toxic spill, not content to be messy on his own but also polluting his surroundings.
Posted by: Steve_dog on December 20, 2005 12:11 PMOpen communication is both the blessing and the curse of the internet. It provides a forum for folks to share ideas. It also provides useful intelligence to your adversaries, who by virtue of a click or two can discern what you're thinking.
Ron, if you're reading this - I hope you're proud of yourself. The Daley family in Chicago has nothing on you. When are you gonnna order the Sheriff to start hauling King County residents out of their homes in the dead of night?
Posted by: Steve_dog on December 20, 2005 12:18 PMWow, I wasn't aware that mail voting was a right and entitlement. Explain how it is that vote by mail is a right. Where in the constitution do you have a right to mail voting?
Posted by: Mike H on December 20, 2005 12:30 PMYour self contradiction is so glaring that I may go blind by it.
Posted by: C. Oh on December 20, 2005 12:39 PMYou've missed the point. Nobody's told you that mail ballots in and of themselves are the problem. The problem is forcing *everybody* to do it. Ever heard of the concept of the secret ballot? You won't have one now in King County.
Posted by: Steve_dog on December 20, 2005 12:48 PMHow many of you that read this blog vote absentee when you don't have to? If you do, you can count yourself as one of the many washingtonians that have now put themselves into a permanent minority position in this state.
I will never understand the individual that gives up their responsibility to the community to conduct elections in the open, at a public gathering for their personal convenience.
Shame on you, all of you that chose years ago to raise the white flag of surrender and give up this state to corrupt elections.
Posted by: jaybo on December 20, 2005 01:08 PMOh really! Violate YOUR rights! Talk about arrogant!
(following reposted for doug's benefit from another thread)
Where is that right?
In the Constitution by doug?
You have the right to vote.
US Constitution
Amendment XV
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Washington Constitution
ARTICLE VI
ELECTIONS AND ELECTIVE RIGHTS
SECTION 1 QUALIFICATIONS OF ELECTORS.
All persons of the age of eighteen years or over who are citizens of the United States and who have lived in the state, county, and precinct thirty days immediately preceding the election at which they offer to vote, except those disqualified by Article VI, Section 3 of this Constitution, shall be entitled to vote at all elections. [AMENDMENT 63, 1974 Senate Joint Resolution No. 143, p 807. Approved November 5, 1974.]
SECTION 6 BALLOT.
All elections shall be by ballot. The legislature shall provide for such method of voting as will secure to every elector absolute secrecy in preparing and depositing his ballot.
I don't see "mail ballot" anywhere.
You have no right to vote by mail.
Go do some reading, learn something, and come back and contribute to an intelligent debate.
The concern around here is having every legal ballot cast, counted accurately, counted once.
I see no evidence for any confidence in a all mail ballot systems. Especially in King Co.
Posted by: JCM on December 20, 2005 01:16 PMWhich, come to think of it, is the only documented case of elections fraud we know of. So apparently this is a good change.
Posted by: JDB on December 20, 2005 01:28 PMI get it now. Welcome to America.
Posted by: mimi on December 20, 2005 01:48 PMFirst, it will make the process more difficult for the public to scrutinize and monitor.
Second, it opens the doors for hundreds and even thousands of unqualified people to vote in our elections.
Third, it will forever finish the ability to reconcile voters with votes cast.
This one move is the final nail in the coffin for ethical government in king county. It will now fall to the party or group that is the most willing to cheat.
By the way, who was responsible for passing the initial legislation that authorized expansion of absentee balloting?
Posted by: jaybo on December 20, 2005 01:53 PMUnless something drastic happens, look for more mailbox voters than ever, look for more double-voters to be counted than ever (due to people voting both by mail and provisionally as in the past), look for even more highly questionable 'divining' of voter intent when it's impossible to know what the voter meant. How disappointing that they are trying to eliminate in-person voting!
Posted by: Misty on December 20, 2005 01:58 PMSince mail-in voting is becoming common statewide, and since it will introduce additional uncertainty into the election system (and we all know what that means - intentional voter fraud, mistakes, extraneous marks, etc, exacerbated by the policy of allowing a two democrat, one republican body to determine "voter intent," if possible), the election code needs to be updated to reflect this change. We need to pressure our legislators, especially rational legislators who value election integrity over inclusiveness at all costs who would sponsor the legislation, to change the law so that an election that results in any two candidates being within 1% of total votes cast (or perhaps it could be expressed as a number of votes, say 10,000) would trigger an automatic runoff election between the top two vote getters. That way, the slop in the system would not matter, and there would be no way to cheat the system in all the ways Stefan has illuminated in his tenacious work here.
Posted by: srogers on December 20, 2005 02:18 PMBut then Vance won re-election to his post, the court case went nowhere, no federal election fraud investigation was pursued, and now this. Oh, and throw in the defeat of I-912.
I was posting as 'JB', but I decided to change to a more descriptive handle. I vote Republican because the Democrats in this state are so bad I'd vote for almost anyone who had even the remotest chance of beating the Dem. Sometimes I had to hold my nose while I voted because the Republican was such a putrefying stinker. You know the saying, "the lesser of two evils." And each time my vote was wasted anyway.
The way I see it it's Seattle/King against the rest of the state with Pierce and Snohomish teetering in the balance. King continues to load their pockets with lead to tip the scales (that's dead, double, and ineligible voters for those who didn't catch it). And there's nothing to stop them.
"And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter." Isaiah 59:14 (KJV)
Posted by: Republican (by default) on December 20, 2005 02:23 PMGregoire Re-elected!!!
Carries King County by 103%!
Please, 70% of King County voters used mail ballots in the last election. Why have fully staffed polling places for the other 30%? A few places can be opened for those who need or want help in the process on election day.
I am sure that there can be bipartisan security measures implemented to safeguard the integrity of the voting process. It will save the taxpayers money.
But, alas, there must be a conspiracy. If there isn't one, you guys would have nothing to live for.
Dug
Please note: I called no one any names. No pinhead, no KLOWN. I did generalize however.
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 20, 2005 02:38 PMAll you'll ever know about a returned absentee ballot if everything is scrutinized perfectly is who finally signed the envelope. Not who filled it out or under what circumstances.
Trading the voting security we've had for over 200 years for the convenience of those too lazy to go a mile or two to cast a vote is a sad comment on the state of American voters in a day when Iraqis risk death to stand in line and stain their fingers purple for the chance to cast a legitimate vote.
Posted by: Bruce Welder on December 20, 2005 02:49 PMDug,
No offense, but please. Were you around during the '04 elections? 100% of the problems came from mail in ballots. All indications say that none of these problems were fixed.
And now Sims wants us to trust him to count even more votes properly. You don't see anything wrong with this? You don't see why some of us are a wee bit ticked off?
Here's a hint: Giving Sims more mail ballots to count is equivalent to giving a drunk another set of car keys.
Posted by: Steve_dog on December 20, 2005 03:00 PMPlease do enlighten us:
What have Sims, Logan and crew done to address--
Approximately 2000 or so more ballots than voters.
Repeated "finding" of ballots.
That KCE error rate was an order of magnitude greater than the margin of victory in the Governors election.
Illegally registered voters.
That Sims elections commissions and audits are all by Sims insiders.
Remind us again of how Logan "fixed" these problems.
How do we met the Bridge ruling level of impossibly high proof of fraud?
That to show fraud it must be shown how a fraudulent vote was cast. When we have secret balloting, you cannot tie a cast tabulated ballot to a voter, legal or illegal
I would love to have faith in the elections system. Yet how can I when the most broken, least dealt with area in KCE, mail ballots are the proposed "solution" top all the problems.
Posted by: JCM on December 20, 2005 03:03 PM"Your property will seized, your bank accounts emptied into the pockets of the Kennedys and Kerrys. You will be forced to undergo re-education and thought training......"
You're putting the cart before the horse. All this has already happened - haven't you been reading the newsletters?
Property HAS BEEN seized - please refer to King Ron Sims' CAO - the taking of property without due compensation.
Bank accounts HAVE BEEN emptied - please refer to the hundreds of millions of new taxes than Queen Christine has proposed.
Re-education and thought training HAS BEEN implemented - please see the recent proposals to circumvent the WASL and ensure that our students will feel good about their utter lack of a proper education.
The internment camps HAVE opened - please refer to King County's tent city where Ron keeps all of his most avid voters right under his thumb.
The only thing LEFT is the electoral process, and now it is being hijacked for King Ron and Queen Christine. You're WAY behind the times, Big Nut Dig Dug.
Posted by: Larry on December 20, 2005 03:09 PMBy simply having just one set of voting parameters much of the problem will be eliminated. There will be no need for two systems to count and tabulate votes.
As to your other issues, water under the bridge. Your time would be better spent embracing the mail in balloting and working to insure the integrity of the system BEFORE an election and not trying to manipulate the results afterward and complaining that it was not fair.
I might not agree with the way things were done, and I don't just for the record, but I believe we can have input and try to make sure that the fix is not worse than the problem.
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 20, 2005 03:11 PMAs one of LENIN's most useful idiots, you also have the honor of cornering the market on being a pinhead and a KLOWN. It doesn't take much more than a few points above your pathetically low IQ DugKLOWN to see that mail-in voting is more susceptible to fraud.
So Dug, share with us the CONTROLS you would put in place to ensure us naysayers that all votes counted are legitimate??? Explain the signature verification process you would use DugKLOWN. And explain how you would account for ALL ballots....from printer to counted????
We await your plan!
As to your other issues, water under the bridge.
Ah! I see previous incompetence if not out right fraud is okey dokey as long as the practitioners have good intentions going forward.
What happened to:
Responsibility.
Accountability.
Rule of Law.
Free.
Fair.
Open.
Airline X has crashed their last three tries to get a plane off the ground.
Airline X refuses to examine the incidents.
Airline X refuses to admit they may have a problem.
Airline X has not change a single operational policy.
Airline X offers another flight.
dug says, "Great lets all hop on after all the crashes are water under the bridge and the operators have every intention of completing THIS flight."
D'oh!
Oh, what, you're the ONLY one who can infuse a little humor into this insane proposal?
And you mine.
Larry
Posted by: Larry on December 20, 2005 03:31 PMYou are rude, you are arrogant, you are uneducated and you have no class.
I will not carry on a dialog with someone who uses name calling and insults as a way of "PROVING" his point.
For weeks now I have read your posts. Nearly every one of them is negative and bitter. How sad for you.
Happy Chanukah and Merry Christmas!
I wish for you this next year a brighter outlook and a sunny disposition.
Dug
I am sure you will attack me again and say that I have no suggestions for safeguards. This is simply not true. I would not be able to convince you, nor you I. We will agree to disagree.
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 20, 2005 03:32 PMSorry. I see it now. I was looking at it as if I expected to be attacked. I appologize.
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 20, 2005 03:37 PMBefore mail ballots are a remote possibility clean voter rolls are an absolute essential necessity.
We have multiple examples of all sorts of illegally registered voters.
KCE has put forth little effort, other than denouncing Shark's critics or the Rep. challenges to illegal voters.
What would you propose to clean up the voter rolls and ensure.
One legal voter.
One legal vote.
Remember the since the '04 election had a 129 vote margin the accuracy rate required must be greater than 99.9936%. That is the allowed total number of illegal voters on the KC rolls must be less than 129.
That is the accuracy rate for just the rolls before mail balloting could begin.
Do you honestly think Logan can achieve that level of performance?
Based on what in his past performance?
I am not a Logan fan at all. I am a moderate Dem who thinks that there are problems, big problems with the system.
I am not an expert but I would be willing to bet that there are a few Republicans registered improperly too.
One idea might be to have each person reregister IN PERSON using a D/L number for ID. Lacking that a birth certificate, passport or such ID. You would be issued a pin number that must match when you send in your vote. The pin number matches, your ballot is dumped into the good bin and counted after the bin is full. This way, your ballot is still secret. I am not sure how to make it work, but I think it can. However, I would want details of the system WELL BEFORE it is used. Perhaps a test run in several districts.
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 20, 2005 04:10 PMIn fact the Democrat controlled state legislature made it LAW January of this year that was illegal to demand identification when registering to vote.
Additionally unlike Democrats we don't care whether the illegally registered "voter" is Republican or Democrat. We advocate that the law and KCE Elections process be corrected to ensure only one vote for each LEGALLY registered CITIZEN of the representative district they're voting in.
Dug, YOUR representatives are actively preventing this. KCE Elections are actively exploiting it.
Posted by: lee egg on December 20, 2005 04:28 PMYou stated 70% of KC voters voted by mail? Was that 70% of the total votes were from mailed in ballots or that 70% of King Counties eligible voters selected mail in?
If it was the former, how many ballots were sent out? How many were returned? How many were actually eligible? How many were an over/under? BTW - the last few questions....no one knows the real answer.
Does the fact that Ron hasn't done the necessary research on this project to state we are moving? There should at least be some numbers they are basing this on. They must have plans in the works...if not then they are just saying, hey lets do this. Oh wait, it costs more, isn't secure and people are being disenfranchised, I wonder why that is?
Please remember that Ron wanted a new building before doing the necessary research and he also cost us $40 million for a computer system. He again has a very low rate of doing things correctly. He seems to be a poor leader and I still don't know why there isn't even a Dem that runs against him....other than the fact that "the Dem" knows he's got no chance with Ronnie in charge of the vote.
Posted by: Dengle on December 20, 2005 04:48 PMI can tell you this, there has to be a way to verify one vote for ONE person. If not, then I would not support wholesale vote by mail. All Democrats, just as all Republicans, are not bad. The extremeists are who worry me.
Dug
Well Dug...
That little 30% works out to about 350,000 voters in King County. Probably a lot more once our troops come back..... Would *you* like to meet with these 350,000 voters and tell them why they can no longer vote securely at the polls?
I don't think it should be up to the county to decide whether or not to go all mail voting. It should be up to a vote by the people. After all - *WE* are the one's with the most to gain or lose by the change. At the very least - it should be a *city* decision.
Another irony in Sims proposal....He claims All Mail voting will be cost effective - yet it's been absentee voting that has cost the county millions and millions over the past several years! He seems to forget the constant software system glitches and their expensive bandaids and peculiar felon employees and ballot mailing errors and duplicates and printing mistakes and threats from the US Department of Justice over late military mailings...etc... Exactly *HOW* can he make this claim that All Mail voting will save the county money? He can't!
Fair elections is clearly a partisan issue here - the Democrat leadership does not want them, because they lose their cheating edge if they are. That was been shown over and over again. Read Horse's Ass if you don't believe that the leftist wing-nuts don't care about fair elections - because there are more illegal voters from the left, although the Repubs had the chance to prove that last May - the statistics and research from SP were all in their favor, but they blew it ! All I can say to the Repubs of WA State is that they need a new direction/leadership and to learn to make lemonade out of lemons.
Posted by: KS on December 20, 2005 08:23 PMAnd what about picking on the poor folks who can't afford postage? Outrageous Ron Sims, absolutely outrageous!
Posted by: MB on December 20, 2005 09:56 PMHey, come to think of it, I like that logic. Let's stop funding the public transportation and let all transportation money build roads only. Only a few percentage of the population uses it, so why support it?
Posted by: C. Oh on December 20, 2005 10:57 PMWhile the current mail ballot system is indeed a farce that is largely responsible for the 2004 Gubernatorial fiasco, I see this as an opportunity. Any time there is wholesale change, the politicians will tread lightly and be more open to caution. This is a chance to get the kind of real security that we all want into the elections. Completely new means of authentication, and or much better electronic signature verification and other ballot envelope bar coding techniques, etc. can be implemented to make mail ballot voting very secure.
I believe we also saw a lot of provisional ballot fraud because the polling place provided a nice anonymous cover for moonbats who want to vote twice with provisionals. While mail ballots are also anonymous, if there is better envelope authentication and such, then moonbat mail voters will fear the unknown of sending in an illegal ballot when they are unsure what will happen given new security. That should improve the situation.
Also, if we move to all mail balloting, then we can conceivably print up custom barcoded ballot envelopes and distribute them to all voters. There would only be one mailing of these secure ballot envelopes and so anyone who tried to circumvent this would have to use a provisional or some other hand written ballot which could be printed in a different color and made much easier to recognize and scrutinize.
Assuming that there are safeguards in place to prevent behind the curtain counting and cheating (which given what we saw in King County in '04 is a big assumption) in many ways mail balloting could be made more secure than poll balloting.
I think it would also be possible to develop some new ballot technologies that would make it far less likely for ballots to be misinterpreted or mismarked. There are a lot of ways to do this without using a pen or pencil, and this would be huge given that people are lazy. If people don't even have to find a pen or pencil to vote, then it's far less likely for them to use the pen or pencil incorrectly to make ambiguous marks that need later interpreted by a canvassing board.
So, in summary, this is an opportunity to make a newly proposed system better. We should press for community involvement in the vendor selection process and in the standards, etc. If we let the politicians know that if we are going to spend money on a new system, that we want a secure system, it's far liklier that this time it will actually happen.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 20, 2005 11:33 PMComrade Sims--your socialist leanings are getting more transparent every day. You have no problem mandating programs and schemes that don't profoundly affect you. How sad you lack the character and integrity needed for your position. Even more pathetic is that you are a "role model" for your kids. Let's hope they develop better character and values that you currently possess.
Posted by: Burdabee on December 20, 2005 11:40 PMAnd "that no jurisdiction in the country of comparable size to King County has ever attempted all-mail voting"? How about Oregon?
Posted by: Bruce on December 20, 2005 11:58 PMEither way, I don't ever want to vote by mail, I want to make sure my vote runs through that huge machine and gets counted! What a freakin' scam...
Again, email exec.sims@metrokc.gov and let the ***** know what you think...it's our right!
--OK...stepping off soap box - thanks
WHO'S GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD THE 40 CENTS FOR A STAMP?
I THINK WE NEED A BLUE RIBBON COMMISSION HEADED UP BY COMMISSAR SIMMS & LOGAN TO INVESTAGATE THIS OUTRAGE.
ABOUT 3.7 MILLOIN SHOULD COVER THEIR EXPENCE.
Posted by: TACOMA PHLASH on December 21, 2005 09:26 AMIf the law requires me to vote by mail, I will NOT vote. It is rife with fraud and entails an unconstitutional "poll tax" by requiring postage to complete.
Enjoy your communist nirvana, ya liberal wankers. I will be moving to a state that still has a semblance of honest and accurate elections. I will return when the revolution starts.
This is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. Our state(and country) are going to hell in a handbasket.
Posted by: Elmo on December 21, 2005 02:30 PMGee whiz, it looks like dug told you a thing or two.
This probably means that he will punish you by ignoring your comments, and withold his silly baseless views and absurd commentary about problems with fraudulent or manipulated elections.
Highly intelligent comments like, "By simply having just one set of voting parameters much of the problem will be eliminated. There will be no need for two systems to count and tabulate votes.” or, "All Democrats, just as all Republicans, are not bad. The extremeists [sic] are who worry me."
Dug has no idea what he is talking about but that won’t stop him because next to changing the subject when he continually gets caught in silly nonsense, ignoring facts is his favorite hobby. King County's notorious widespread problems with Republican extremeists [sic] notwithstanding, dug is . . . a pandering relativist and an insipid pinheaded partisan.
By the way, dug attended the University of Southern California. (Go Trojans!) Any questions?
What a shame for you.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on December 21, 2005 02:54 PMa pandering relativist and an insipid pinheaded partisan..... did you stay up all night to come up with this? The name calling is very sophomoric. Of course you did manage to impress yourself.
I would like to know what your education level is, I am guessing that you dropped out in the 9th grade to stay home and play video games.
Knocking my education and choice of school just demonstrates your complete lack of maturity and inability to form a cogent argument. Always attacking personally.
My suggestion was simplistic,I wanted to make sure you could wrap what remains of your brain around it, and I don't operate under the same fear of conspiracy that you do. The KISS principle works, you Republicans have proved that with the prettypicturenicesoundbite strategy.
Every time things don't go the Republican way, we hear screams of "it was fixed", "it was unfair", "illegal voters" and on and on. Most of us are sick of your act. The amazing thing is, the hole your party is digging, just keeps getting bigger and bigger. I can't decide if it is ego or stupidity. Either way, you have imploded.
Your basic problem is that you live in a blue state. I suggest you pack up your trailer and take it to Arkansas. There you will find other like minded front teeth missing, mouth breathing conspiracy lovers, and you can drink your Schmidt and rant for hours with folks who will think you are a genius. They will never suspect the truth. That you are an unintelligent, bitter zealot who, with absolute blind faith, believes every bit of propaganda espoused by his chosen party.
If you need help with any of the big words, dictionary dot com is an excellent resource.
Dug
That’s fine, but another change of subject and indulgence in silly nonsense will not transform the fact that you have no point.
What does any of this have to do with all-mail voting? As always, inane views and meaningless remarks.
My last post was in response to your personal attack. Your post had NOTHING to do with mail voting either. It was a thinly veiled attack on me.
I wish you would at least try to keep up.
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 22, 2005 05:47 PMProjection: n, A defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else.
Pot - meet kettle..........
Posted by: alphabet soup on December 22, 2005 07:09 PMProjection: n, A defense mechanism by which your own traits and emotions are attributed to someone else.
Pot - meet kettle..........
Posted by: alphabet soup on December 22, 2005 07:10 PMExcuses are fun too; where might any sensible/intelligent content from you, be?
Posted by: Amused by liberals on December 22, 2005 07:46 PM