Many of the recent posts and comments about vote-by-mail have mentioned the cost factor, but few have been able to cite hard facts about what the cost really is. I'm not going to try to do that, but I have run across some documents that may shed light on the issue.
Last summer, Pierce County decided not to move to vote-by-mail because of the increased cost. This was a surprise at the time, as seemingly every other county was citing cost savings with an all-mail system. Curious, I requested copies of the cost analysis Pat McCarthy, the county auditor, had done on the issue.
Here are most of the documents I got back. A couple of items stuck out to me after reviewing the analysis.
First, on the "vote by mail estimates" page, most of the increased costs associated with vote-by-mail did not appear to be one-time expenditures. I would assume that "Capitol Equipment" is a one-time cost that would not re-occur, but even without that vote-by-mail is more expensive than the status quo.
Dean's analysis for King County seems to have come to a similar conclusion, as he stated in his January 31 report to Sims (page 21)
In a vote-by-mail system, more ballots will be printed, processed and mailed to voters. More ballots will be returned from voters requiring increased resources for incoming processing, tracking, and tabulating. The added cost of these activities is marginally greater than the savings generated by eliminating poll voting but represents an increased cost benefit when considering reduced opportunity for errors, increased accountability and greater security.
I'd have to say that the cost savings due to less errors and greater security are dubious at best.
Second, I found the survey McCarthy conducted of other counties very enlightening. Based on her comments, it appears that none of the counties listed did a great job of analyzing the costs, nor of presenting them accurately to the public. Since cost savings was one of the most-touted benefits to vote-by-mail in many counties, this conclusion is not something that greatly increases my trust in our county election officials.
Also, in regard to the costs in Oregon, I ran across an article by Melody Rose, an associate professor of political science at Portland State University who has heavily researched the vote-by-mail system there. She has this to say about the cost: "As for the often touted savings, we have no evidence vote-by-mail saves money — that largely depends on how "costs" are defined."
Posted by Jonathan Bechtle at May 26, 2006 03:46 PM | Email ThisTake rebuilding the Alaskan Way Viaduct. The Liberal premise is that a waterfront sans the Viaduct would be pretty, nevermind the $4 Billion+ price tag.
Vote By Mail has become part of the Liberal Dogma. Just like Multiculturalism, Welfare, Bush Hatred, Environmentalism, Global Warming, etc.
King County has made up its mind, and no matter how many rational examples are provided, we will go down yet another foolish, expensive and ultimately ... failed ... path.
Posted by: Jeff B. on May 26, 2006 03:59 PMI worked in the feral gummint for 25+ years. The descriptor "increased cost benefit" sounds like gobbledegook to me and indicates that Dean knows very little about Cost/Benefit Analysis. Fuzzing of terminology is a ubiquitous bureaucrat tactic to cover up ignorance, or laziness. Your additional citations back this up -- Dean doesn't know what he's saying...
Posted by: BOB R on May 26, 2006 04:41 PMAm I being just a little to suspicious? I’m sorry.
The only ones who benefit from All Mail Voting - are the voters who are too lazy to go to the polls - and the Democrats in power who drool at the opportunities for fraud that All Mail voting provides.
Posted by: Deborah on May 26, 2006 08:58 PMIn all seriousness, elections shouldn't be run with the goal being to save money. The goal should be to use the most accurate means of determining the actual winner of each race. The drive to save money, or facade of saving money as it likely is, is nothing less than the Democrats way of justifying changes aimed at increasing, and not decreasing opportunities for fraud and corruption.
Many people vote absentee because they know that whatever they choose to do won't make a difference in the abuses by others. I don't worry about the validity of my vote, but I sure am conserned with the validity fo thousands, or maybe even tens of thousands of votes cast and counted by people who are taking advantage of the system's loopholes.
I think the average voter would welcome a reduction in absentee voting, with rules that would allow only those really in need to use that alternative. But we all know why Democrats continue to push nationwide for increased mail voting, don't we?
(Psssst.....They're already doing that...they just want to give the impression that "we" actually have something to do with the outcome...They created this All Mail Voting scam just so we would "believe" we still have a dog in the vote fight....The truth is - whether we vote at the polls or vote by mail..."they" still control the outcome...As we witnessed in the 2004 election - they can manipulate any system and get the judicial system to back them)
Posted by: Deborah on May 27, 2006 01:57 AMThe other thing that caught my eye was the talk about rearranging the precincts to accommodate forced mail voting. I don't recall King County explicitly linking those issues. (Must reread Logan's "Plan for Vote by Mail".)
I mention the redrawing the precincts for two reasons.
1, that historical voting data can be useful for providing insight into election integrity. Much of the analysis post-2004 for Ohio and Florida compared results with prior behavior. For the most part.
2, A lot of people are attached the current precinct structure, namely the precinct committee officers.
Posted by: Jason Osgood on May 27, 2006 08:46 AMOur last few elections were not fair elections and it has become a near-crisis. Democrats are ignoring this fact and doing whatever they feeeeeeel is the thing they feeeeeeel they want to do regardless of the realistically inevitable consequences. The appalling nonsense substituted for facts and evidence of facts used by liberals to support Voting by Mail shows that liberals do not give a fu@k about fair elections – only liberal utopian fantasies and domination. It is more important to them to justify the absurd canard that more ballots equal fairer elections than to elect leaders based on legitimate votes of the people.
Jason Osgood comments like an intelligent and thoughtful man and yet he appears to believe that because there are many liberals who sincerely feeeeel that VBM is a good idea, these liberals “don’t want fraud” just the “good idea.” It’s sort of like demanding the ham without any of the pig. Deliberate ignorance of the facts is not sincere, and if liberals don’t want fraud they need to stop promoting ideas that creates the breeding ground for fraud.
Self-professed liberals (possibly including Jason Osgood) will do whatever is necessary to win at all cost, and if fraud is necessary—they simply pretend it isn’t fraud and look the other way. The linkage between liberal zeal and cynical deceit on every issue is intensifying for many Democrats today. Some less ardently brainwashed and patriotic semi-liberals are morally grounded and intelligent enough to recognize the obvious corruption and they are coming over to the conservative Republican side.
Liberalism is a failed ideology that will never work no matter how much its recalcitrant followers try to make it work because it relies solely on an intrinsic inconsistency. It must have capitalism to fund it and huge leaps of faith to keep its followers ignorant of that fact. In the long run, liberalism enforced by this corrupt voting system will do more damage to liberals than honest people.
Voting by mail is a liberal fait accompli that will severely damage procedural democracy in Washington State as it has in Oregon. Liberals tinkering with voting systems are like children playing with fire in the basement of their parent’s home. The adults (Republicans) will eventually have to clean up the mess.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on May 27, 2006 12:27 PMIt's funny how angry you seem to be with liberals. Typical FOX tactic.. name calling in place of discussion of an issue.
The real problem is HAVA, written by people that run with the same crowd as Ken Lay, Jack Abramoff and Scooter Libby. HAVA, written by the Republicans, created this absolute mess. Why don't you take some responsibility, Amused, and clean THAT up?
The fact is Mail-only voting is probably less worse than the paperless voting machines that Sec of State Reed and the rest of the Republicans wanted. The Democrats in King County are at least keeping the ridiculous computerized voting machines out of this county.
The other fact, Amused, is that the Republican party nationwide is imploding by the week. The people in charge can hardly be called Republicans, by any objective standard. They should just call it the 'War Party' or the 'Pentagon Party'. Unless regular Republicans start to denounce the lies and nonsense of the War Party, they may bring down the entire Republican Party. Bush is running scared like the feeble man he is. He even fled the country the day the Enron convictions were announced. Hardly fit to run the country.
Posted by: Frank on May 27, 2006 08:55 PMThis thread is entitled “Counting the cost of mail ballots,” and it is about all mail voting in Washington State, not Bush hate derangement syndrome you moron.
Obviously your addlepated nastiness and marginal intellect has lead you astray.
While it is amusing how liberal you are with projection of your own anger, the mess you refer to was not caused by the people you love to hate. Nevertheless, it will be cleaned up soon -- although not in a fashion to sate your comically spiteful bitterness. In your parlance, ”Mail-only voting is probably less worse . . . “ than other things that might be more or less worser, but you have no more idea of what you are feeeeeeling than how to write about it so . . . never mind
Thanks for your recycled analysis of current events and the Republican Party. While anyone could listen to a turd and get more useful information, unlike you I prefer to flush immediately. See ya round . . .
I too look forward to a lessening of the worsening and hope that it's sooner rather than later.
(Does that make me less worse of a conservative, or francis more (or less) of a liberal, or less/more of a liberal and more/less of a moron?
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 27, 2006 10:40 PMPlease remember that your vote is sacred....don't let anyone dimish it. You have the right to spout bullsh*t...and the right for you to vote for dipsh*t's (Jim M.), but you know what...only legal registered voters can do this. If my state is full or you and that's how the vote goes I will have to live with it. But right now I think that there are masses of people out there tweaking the vote to bring us a cart load of sh*t! Stefan has shown it, Deanron loves to eat it, and you think it is a great skin cream. So lather up you @ss.
Posted by: Dengle on May 27, 2006 11:06 PMAccusing others of hatred, Frank? Time to look hard in the mirror. Perhaps you'll see what the rest of us have seen from your side. It isn't pretty.
Posted by: Misty on May 28, 2006 01:02 AMDoes anyone have the cost analysis for King County? If the council wants to claim that forced mail voting is going to be a cost savings in the long run they should back it up with an analysis like this. I think it is suspicious that they do not present the numbers.
Posted by: Juli P, on May 28, 2006 06:20 AMDo you want the cheapest voting system or the best?
Do others want the cheapest system? Is that the #1 priority here?
Posted by: Frank on May 28, 2006 08:51 AMFace it . . . your'e at a loss . . .
We like you anyway because you come here and
demonstrate the clueless ness and angry frustrated
stupidity of the left in a way that our reasoning and honesty can't fully explain.
Keep up that moron Bush hate gambit, it'll get you far.
Posted by: Amused by twinks like Francis on May 28, 2006 09:19 AMDo you want to have the most expensive and worst voting system? Must seem that you do, since you want vote by mail in KC run by Deanron.....how much evidence do you need to see that it will be a total disaster?
As for hate....please look in the mirror....
My comments, though harsh are true since you don't look at things objectively. As my dad use to say to me.....if your friends wore buckets of sh*t for shoes, would you want to too? I think your reply would be yes.
Posted by: Dengle on May 28, 2006 10:50 AMI doubt that many people here want the "cheapest" voting system. The point is, that Deanron has been selling the public a bill of goods. One of the justification for switching to all mail voting is that it's cheaper. Many studies show that this is not true. Politicians, lips moving...you know the rest.
What Francis is clumsily trying to tell you is that his hat matches his shoes.
BTW francis -- this isn't hate . . . it's humor . . . something you would know about if
you weren't so busy being a frantically angry and pompous broadcaster of absurd liberal nonsense.
You're good. Thanks for the chuckles.
Posted by: Amused by francis on May 28, 2006 11:56 AMIt looks like the only person who actually does real work on issues is Stephan.
Are any of you angry people actually DOING anything? Oh no, that would require effort, and sweat.
Posted by: Frank on May 29, 2006 09:28 AMYour dogged psychosis is hilarious.
We love Democrats like you because you illustrate the complete incapacity to reason, absolute convictions based on nothing but wishful emotions, and comically deluded insistence on hatefully attributing hatred to others only because we don’t agree with your insipid nonsense.
Thanks for decorating this thread with example after example of your characteristically rank liberal stupidity.
francis -- the spiteful gift that just keeps on giving.
Posted by: Amused by francis the talking mule on May 29, 2006 10:53 AMDemocrats, owned by the labor unions. They support everyone voting, even illegal immigrants.
Republicans, owned by the corrupt defense corporations. They support adding discrimination into the US Constitution in the form of the Federal Marriage Amdendment.
Can someone please explain what the Republican party offers the average citizen?
Posted by: Frank on May 29, 2006 12:35 PMCan someone give me one reason why francis shouldn't just give in to the voices, go home and hang himself in the closet?
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 29, 2006 01:09 PMIn a word, HUMOR.
This guy is funny, he's serious, and he keeps it coming.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on May 29, 2006 03:34 PMfrancis, would you pretty please spin another one for us? Pleeze!
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 29, 2006 03:50 PMYou guys are great recruiters for liberals. Liberals. Liberals. Liberals. Oh how you hate liberals. Don't they make your blood boil? They're so accepting of others and they value schools. Ohhhh! The nerve of LIBERALS.
Posted by: Frank on May 29, 2006 08:40 PMYou've been staring into the sun too long buddy!
Posted by: alphabet soup on May 30, 2006 09:05 AMThe right to vote should be taken very seriously. In ALL aspects of the voting process, those in charge should ALWAYS remember how important the individual's vote is to our form of government.
State of Washington Auditors, how many ways are there for illegal votes to be cast?
What specifically have you done to eliminate, beyond reasonable doubt, each of these methods of fraudulent voting?
If our right to vote is sacred, what have you done to punish those that violate our sacred right? How many prosecutions? How many convictions? How many letters have you sent proclaiming how "violations of election laws will not be tolerated"?
Sec of State Reed, what is the collective accuracy of ballot accountability in the State? Do all of the counties handle their ballots the same as King County? How airtight is the chain of custody for each ballot? Does the State keep records on different ways to cheat election systems and methods to prevent the cheating?
If you can't address how all the cheating holes have been plugged, why should I trust you in changing the system? Shouldn't you gain my trust that you've plugged the holes BEFORE you go to another system? Shouldn't this "new" system have
documented proof that cheating is virtually impossible? Sparkly "assurances" are NOT documented proof.
Prove it to me and then maybe I would be grudgingly acceptable of your new plan to protect my sacred right to vote.
So far, I don't trust you farther than I can throw a marshmallow into a heavy wind.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on May 30, 2006 10:08 AM