The late Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was one of our greatest Americans.
So why tarnish his legacy by affixing his image to a county government which is best known for junk science, scandalous secrecy, election fraud and the neglect and abuse of prisoners?
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at March 12, 2007 10:15 PM | Email ThisWhy that sounds just like King County Democrats. They want not only to destroy individualism, freedom and bring back racism; but they also want to do it with the full sanction of their victims.
Posted by: Jeff B. on March 13, 2007 12:53 AMAnd I am confused by some other things as well.
I could be wrong, but I think we now officially live in "The Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior County, Washington". That is difficult to put on a map. And to say.
And this may turn out to be even more troubling. The legal names of MLK Sr. and MLK Jr. are Michael King Jr. and Michael King Sr.
The founder of Selma, Alabama, the home of the civil rights movement, is our former county namesake and vice president at the county's formation, William Rufus Devane King. His granfather was Michael King, a very successful North Carolina "planter".
Could Michael King Sr. and Michael King Jr. have derived their North American names from an early North Carolina slave owner?
Could that mean that King County is yet named for a slave holder?
Washington State and Seattle certainly are.
Chief Seattle reveled in his slave raids, and his Suquamish tribe are known to have had their slaves buried with them. ALIVE!
We all know that George Washington owned 300 slaves at the time of his death.
If historical revisionism based upon modern political correctness is to be invoked fairly, then Clallam, Jefferson, Stevens, Mason, Okanogan, and Spokane counties along with our State and City should find new namesakes. A little serious research might eliminate them all.
no disrespect for the man, but don't we have bigger fish to fry in the County than changing logos? and why no lobbying from the Native locals for their heroes' logos?
i move to make it all neutral--or metrosexual--call cities "a", "AA" "AA1" "B" and so on...or give them all numbers. (ha--add THAT to all your memorized pin numbers!)
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on March 13, 2007 04:54 AM@3: You bet! This will cost and cost and cost.
I have no problem with the man myself, but the fact of the matter is that King County was/is named after Vice President King. That is something you really can't change no matter how feel good the intentions are.
This is another shining example of government waste. I don't care that it is *only* $600,000 - there are a million examples of seemingly small amounts of money (and time) being spent on such things while my property taxes continue their upward creep and our leaders sit with their hands out.
Also, Dori had a great point on the radio yesterday - the big unvieling was held at Mt. Zion Church. Can you imagine the outrage if the county did something like this at Antioch or Mars Hill?
Posted by: Eric on March 13, 2007 07:50 AMI thought there was supposed to be a "separation of church and state"? Oh, I forgot - that only applies to "faith-based initiatives" supported by conservatives....
Posted by: Patrick on March 13, 2007 07:55 AMIt seems to me that there are three key concepts when analyzing the new logo:
a. symbolism
b. substance
c. meaning
Symbolism is important to any group's progress.
In modern times, I believe that Shirley Chisholm, the late congresswoman from NYC was the first Black to run for president. She was followed by Sharpton/Jackson. Those were symbols, but the question was did those actions have substance and meaning. Those acts had no substance because the aspirants had no chance. They had meaning because they evidenced the fact that Black people were entering the political mainstream. They paved the way for Obama who has a reasonable chance and has given the symbolic meaning.
So, we have the symbol of the MLK logo. Does it convey any substance or meaning in the aspirations of not only Blacks, but those in the society who feel marginalized due to economic or other reasons? Many argue that the next movement for Dr. King, according to his writings, was not only peaceful protest but moving Blacks into the economic mainstream. One could only conjecture what form that would take. Given his time period, it probably would have meant entering the capitalistic mainstream. The writings of JFK evidence a very different view of economics than held by many socialist democrats, Obama included.
The problem confronting Blacks and other ethnic groups is what chosen symbols will convey. Do we adopt faux symbols like Kwanza, thought up by a con man, and abandon the meaning of a Christian heritage? This heritage which got us through slavery and is evidenced by the life of the Christian minister, Dr. King? Do we seek meaning in a destructive cultural dynamic like hip hop?
I would argue that the changing of the logo, like Shirley Chislom's run for the White House is a symbol. In the case of Chisholm's attempt it led to the substance and meaning of the Obama run.
Whether the symbolism embodied in the logo change will lead to the better education and improved economic prospects for not only Blacks, but others, is really the substance and meaning of the King message. At its core, the meaning of Dr. King's message is improved life chances for all. The logo is simply a symbol of the meaning of that message. The substance is still to be fulfilled.
$600k here, $700k there and pretty soon we are talking about real money. /sarcasmoff
Posted by: Palouse on March 13, 2007 08:12 AM1. I do not argue for wasting money, government or other people's money. The fact is that government as consituted wastes money as do many private businesses. The question is whether this $600,000 is better spent on other things? A legitimate question. The real issue is whether this can be analogized to the balance sheet item
"good will" and will this expenditure eventually lead to actual "good will" which will produce more in revenue than the current expenditure?
Only time will tell.
2. The argument about candidates appearing in Black churches and conservative churches taking heat is valid. It is also true of Black conservative churches as well. The Rev. Floyd Flake runs a huge church in NYC and he supports self-determination and a conservative view of Christianity. He has been the subject of IRS complaints. Churches should have the right to express views based upon their theology. The problem is the ACLU and Barry Lynn have been allowed to define the meaning of church/state relations. Appearing at any church in my view is perfectly appropriate and people should support Jay Sekulow and other legal groups including the Christian Legal Society.
Posted by: WVH on March 13, 2007 08:32 AMHow is it that this logo creates "goodwill" in terms of additional revenue for the county? If anything, this logo is a drag on revenue for continual payments to the King family for the use of his image.
Posted by: Palouse on March 13, 2007 08:45 AM
I don't make the decisions for groups deciding to hold conventions in any locale. For example, many groups when deciding how to spend convention/meeting dollars look at "diversity" factors of which the logo is an example.
The reason I discussed symbolism in my earlier post is the intangible value of a symbol. I cannot quantify that, but if the symbol, as in the case of the Chilsom run for president leads to an Obama running, even though I don't agree with his politics, it is a good thing. To be intellectualy honest, Newark, Gary, and East St. Louis have plenty of symbols and Blacks are still mired in misery there. That is more a function of the secular progressive corrupt machines that run those areas. Only time will tell here. The key, in my opinion, is more capital and capitalistic ideas in low-income communities. More convention business, please.
Posted by: WVH on March 13, 2007 09:20 AMSome opponents to the name change have warned of that possibility, but I'm not aware of any plans, request, basis, or precedent for such payment. Are you?
Posted by: Bruce on March 13, 2007 09:41 AMI sense a trend. It's so dynamic.
Posted by: Rey Smith on March 13, 2007 09:57 AMCommercial use of King's likeness may be another matter. County Councilwomen Jane Hague, R-Bellevue, and Kathy Lambert, R-Woodinville, have expressed concern that the King estate might seek royalties if the county used King's likeness in such "entrepreneurial" activities as hosting concerts or Cirque du Soleil at Marymoor Park.
County Council members have discussed with Brewer in closed session whether the county might have to pay royalties for some activities at pools, parks and the Enumclaw fairgrounds.
Gossett said Monday he had contacted attorneys and intellectual-property representatives of the King family, who told him they would seek direction from King's widow, Coretta Scott King, who was ill.
the cowards....
Posted by: Taylor Scott on March 13, 2007 10:22 AMAnd to add to a previous post about "good will". I advise to clients that goodwill does not spring fully formed from a new logo. Goodwill is something that is created by the company (in this case King County) over years of operation and the logo only represents that goodwill, of lack of it.
Personally, I don't think King County is capable of creating goodwill. They are capable however of lying, deceit, corruption and ignoring the will of the people. Not nice attributes for MLK to be associated with.
Posted by: G Jiggy on March 13, 2007 10:38 AM
I'd be just as happy living in "South" Martin Luther King, Jr County.
Posted by: John Bailo on March 13, 2007 10:46 AManother part of me feels like an average innocent corporation just after a "visit" from Jesse Jackson & his Team of "advisors."
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on March 13, 2007 11:04 AMI never said churches should stay out of politics.
"Churches should have the right to express views based upon their theology. The problem is the ACLU and Barry Lynn have been allowed to define the meaning of church/state relations. Appearing at any church in my view is perfectly appropriate and people should support Jay Sekulow and other legal groups including the Christian Legal Society."
Don't put words in my mouth. Conservative churches have the same right to an opinion as liberal churches. I have no problem with any church expressing their theology. Bruce, Rev. Flake was a democratic congressman and he allowed President Bush to speak at his church, hence the IRS complaint. If you actually read the mission statement of his church, despite the fact he was a former democratic congressman, it is about independence and alignment with those with similar ideas.
Rey:
Control yourself. Hip hop, chav culture is not worthy of spreading. As I understand the message of Dr. King, it was tolerance and peaceful expression of one's ideas in the political realm. Are you against that? So the symbolism of those ideas is entirely different than glorifying Snop Dog on his latest arrest in Sweden.
G. Jiggy:
The symbolism is often aimed at those living in a locale. Corrupt governments do more to suppress the ambitions of low-income people, many of whom are perople of color. The solution, if possible is to get rid of the correput government.
The election of an elections chief is a start. There needs to be viable candidates from both parties.
Katomar:
The reason I am against corruption is symbolism must be converted to substance. I am aware of Newark, Gary, and East St. Louis. But, as Shirley Chisholm is the example, substance sometimes starts with symbolism.
Posted by: WVH on March 13, 2007 11:40 AMI believe it was one of the Dakotas that changed their abortion law. I don't know how effective economic boycotts in the travel industry are, but pro-choice groups called for a boycott. Bruce and Ivan could probably answer the question, but in the hunt for the dem convention wasn't diversity siting one of the issues and I think that is also true for groups like journalists and the library association.
Posted by: WVH on March 13, 2007 11:46 AMI believe it was one of the Dakotas that changed their abortion law. I don't know how effective economic boycotts in the travel industry are, but pro-choice groups called for a boycott. Bruce and Ivan could probably answer the question, but in the hunt for the dem convention wasn't diversity siting one of the issues and I think that is also true for groups like journalists and the library association.
Posted by: WVH on March 13, 2007 11:47 AMI suggest you read my original post @ #10 and my response to Palouse's statement about the expenditure of the $600,000. "Goodwill" used as a balance sheet term is never enough to get things done, it was simply one explanation. Beyond symbolism is substance. The jury is still out on that one.
Posted by: WVH on March 13, 2007 11:50 AMI'm under control, brother. I was merely pointing out that African-American culture has morphed from Dr. King's promise of hope and color-blindness to the current worship of thuggery and outright fantasies like Kwanzaa, and that contemporary re-naming ought to reflect the truth.
Of course, that would require some measure of intellectual honesty -- not the Left's strong suit...
Posted by: Rey Smith on March 13, 2007 11:57 AMI suppose since I am a Black woman you never read my posts considering not worthy of your time.
"65. Redkittyred and Others:
Generally, when studying populations and particular traits, social scientists like to study a population over time - a longitude study.
Although, it was not planned as one of the biggest longitude studies over time,the effect of secular progressive policies on the Black family has turned out to be a longitude study. Monyihan reports that in the earlier 50s most Black children lived in two parent families. Now about 60% of Black children are born to households headed by single females. The effects on the Black community have been devasting:
a. Black male incareceration
b. poverty
c. lack of education achievement
d. stigmitization in the greater culture
e. health issues
Now, Redkittyred and others if you want to promote your secular progressive bullsh*t for your communities, please be my guest and best wishes to you. I plan to work to strengthen my
community."
I am well aware of the promise of Dr. King's quest and how far we still have to go. Your poor taste in scarcism is evidence of the fact that I believe you said you are married to a woman of color, your contempt for other groups of color is palpable.
Now, regarding intellectual honesty, read my
comments above.
Your posts would be more worthy of my time if they were less self-referential.
How am I to guess your gender or race from the words on a screen?
Dr. King would argue that race and gender are not determiners of value, yet you rely on them to make your point.
Which proves mine.
the left media seems to label every city in the current war as 'holy,' implying that we are desecrating everything.
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on March 13, 2007 02:08 PMToo bad that Sen. Ed Murray and other gay leaders in this state have no knowledge of their own history. They might not have been so quick to jettison poor William King.
Posted by: DJ on March 13, 2007 02:40 PMFor example, we have shifted the focus of our criminal-justice system from detention to prevention.
.........steal a car, get out of jail free, steal another, get out of jail free, steal another, get out of jail free.
Through the cooperation of the courts, prosecutors, defenders, executive and council, the county implemented a series of "risky" reforms designed to create meaningful and workable alternatives to incarceration.
..........like the 3 recent officers that were killed by people that should have been locked up.
These changes have led to a dramatic reduction in King Count's jail population,
.........by releasing criminals that haven't met their required, court imposed penalties.
slowing of the growth of expenditures necessary to operate our adult- and juvenile-detention center, and a reduction in the recidivism rate among offenders who participated in alternative programs we created, such as day reporting, mental-health and drug courts, and therapeutic family counseling.
.........go spend some quality family time at the downtown unina....errr public library or at a tent city in Redmond.
Dr. King should be honored in a county that isn't a laughing stock of the State and the Nation, he deserves better.
In previous posts, Rey has said that he works for a university in Eastern Washington. He has said that he is married to a woman of color. He has continually, and often even I have to admit can be funny at times, sterotyped Black people by using certain hip hop mannerisms. I do not assume that you or any person is a party to oppression simply by virtue of the color of your skin. Now, having said that, most ethnic communities are
layered and cannot be described by taking one sub-group and using that as a descriptor. If you consider that symbolism can be important to the development of a culture. Whether you ever agree with or vote for Obama, he is a symbol of the political and cultural maturity, both of Blacks and of this country. I went to WAZZU, so I am familiar with parts of eastern Washington including Spokane. Langston Hughes is a center for the arts and showcases plays and films.
As long as we are asking questions, what does this comment mean?
"I have to admit, I am very ignorant as to MLK."
Yet you go on to state that you live with his legacy? If you don't mind, what does that mean?
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8453/kclogozt3.gif
Posted by: Smoley on March 14, 2007 12:20 PMStart by getting in my face about Kwanzaa. Tell me how it wasn't made up by Ron Karenga, ex-con and asshole first class.
Hip hop is an abomination. Obama isn't even an African-Amrican (African/American maybe). MLK said it wasn't about color, but about character. Yet color and race is all you want to talk about.
Whyzat?
Posted by: Rey Smith on March 14, 2007 12:55 PMThis seems especially true when the whining criminal class does nothing to improve their own neighborhoods...
Hence is it any suprise that the term, "tourists in blue" has become common place...
Posted by: juandos on March 14, 2007 03:25 PMDancing cheek to cheek are we?
1. It is too bad that you don't consider anything written by me worthy of your time. I said in a previous post that Kwaanza was a made-up holiday by a con man who had served time in prison. The attempt was to diminish the Christian heritage of most Blacks. The abolition movement was led by Christians, Wilberforce, the subject of the movie Amazing Grace and others. Rev. Dr. King was a minister. Let me elaborate on that post, I am not a secular progressive and believe that a lot of the values of religion would go a long way to solving a lot of problems in not only the Black community, but other low-come communities. I also like Michael Medved a lot. I have posted this many times.
2. Regarding hip hop, I have posted many times that if I wanted to design a method of genocide without actually shooting some one, it would be hip hop. It teaches values like shoot and kill police, bad grammar and language, disrepect of women, and a general lowering of values necessary to produce a cohesive and stable society. I am happy to report that sales for this genre are dropping.
3. Regarding Obama, his mother is Caucasian from Kansas and his father is from Africa. The interesting thing about race is if one is identifiably a color, then one is treated like that color. Spike Lee in "School Days" dealt with issues of how darker skin people are treated. I don't know if it is still true, but at one time Lousiana had close to a 100 classifications for Black people depending on the shade of skin.
There is debate about whether Obama shares the Black experience because he was raised by his Caucasian grandparents in Hawaii. In my mind, he is identifiably Black and should some individual not be aware of who he is. Based on looks, he will be treated as a Black.
4. You are correct that Dr. King wanted the future test of how a person is treated to be his or her character. We are not there yet. This society is not, contrary to what posters here want to think, colorblind. I don't think that it should ever be colorblind, but color accepting. My hero is Marva Collins because she took children the Chicago Public Schools had thrown away and given up on and taught them Latin, Greek, math, and the classics. She proved that Black children could compete on the merits and get accepted into into college in America on the merits. Dr. King gloried in his dark skin because he saw that his skin color was no bar to achievement. America is not at the point where color is not noticed or taken account of, so why pretend we are at a different point. It is what it is.
Forever in your face, :-)
WVH
I admit that I know less about you than I would if I had read all of your posts. I have only been on this board for about three months or so. Apparently I've missed a lot, so I'll look for your intials from now on (I tend to pay more attention to post contents than poster identity).
I agree with about 90% of what you are saying. Anyone who is a fan of Marva Collins has my respect. To that extent, I am totally down with you, ma'am.
One last question: does your first name begin with the letter V and end with E? (I think I may know you....)
Posted by: Rey Smith on March 15, 2007 09:09 AM1. As in all things follow the money. You are quite correct that Black conservatives are labeled oreo and worse. There is a lot of George Soros and Peter Lewis of Progressive insurance money being funneled into individuals and organizations. The leader of the NAACP just quit because he wanted to address issues confronting the Black community and not be so beholden to the democratic party or liberal ideology. What is going to help the Black community or any low income community like Appalacia is economic development and moving a substantial number of people into the middle class. Secular progressive ideas here, like New Labour in Britain, are designed to keep people on the dole. Keep them dumb and stupid and mine their votes. Gary, Newark, and East St. Louis are examples of corrupt regions where corrupt Blacks are in power and nothing changes. Education which is in the hands of secular progressives must be made competitive. Keyes is a favorite of mine as well.
2. WVH is the order of my name. First name begins with W.
3. Race in this society and others is a very complicated issue. Many Blacks feel as I do, but are afraid to speak out because their jobs depend on favor with secular progressives who can be some of the most intolerant people around. Also, a lot of secular progressives, like some conservatives don't read and just chant a mantra. I had an interesting exchange with redkittyred on marriage. It was apparent that this person hadn't read anything since being handed talking points from whatever gay rights group they belong to. Can you imagine a Black teacher going into the break room with a group of WEA/NEA supporters and saying I think we need charter schools and competition and that some schools serving low-income children need different values than those foisted on them by secular progressives?
We are out there and slowly some of us are speaking out because the situation is so dire.
Posted by: WVH on March 15, 2007 10:20 AM