...about the Duke Lacrosse case:
And at the risk of incurring ECB's wrath, I gotta say that I think the stripper ought to be prosecuted too. Back in the bad ol' days a woman who claimed to have been raped was not believed or blamed. That was wrong. Now accusations of rape are taken seriously, as well they should be. But the pendulum has swung so wildly that the presumption of innocence no longer exists for a man accused of rape. He's guilty until proven innocent--that's what the Duke lacrosse players were put through.
I'm not sure if I agree with Savage's call for prosecution of the accuser. News coverage seems to indicate she may not be mentally fit to be charged. Yet, forthright, public condemnation of fraudulent and criminal behavior seems fair. Maybe not as a far as John Podhoretz, but let's not shy away from the truth of the matter.
For reference in Savage's post, "ECB" is Erica C. Barnett, who previously wrote about the case at the Stranger's blog. She had some condemning things to say about the accused, even after 60 Minutes delivered a journalistic beatdown to the case's validity. Mostly, Barnett seemed hung up on the boorish behavior of the team members (as opposed to criminal acts) and the poor-form displayed by less articulate and thoughtful defenders of the players.
I say stick to judging the young men themselves, particularly under the proverbial trial of the last year. They've conducted themselves with dignity and class, from David Evans's initial public statement in defense of himself and his teammates, to Reade Seligmann's announced desire to become a criminal defense attorney. Barnett objects to calling them "good guys." Maybe they're not "good." They're certainly imperfect. But now, something more laudatory seems in order. Admirable may be a good place to start.
Nifong and all the rest who participated in this charade should be sued into oblivion and punished to the fullest extent of the law (at least he should be disbarred) for doing what they did. For crying out loud, he did this because he thought it was the way to get re-elected, but why should we care whether he can make his mortgage payment when the price is ruining college students' lives????
Nifong should be kicked out of his job and never be allowed near his current job again, as he has shown that he has completely blown the trust of the people. yes, I'm angry that they would do this to innocent citizens. That could be YOU, people.
Posted by: Michele on April 12, 2007 10:43 PM1. Moral Responsibility
2. Legal Responsibility
3. Community Responsibility
As to the moral responsiblility
a. This young women is morally irresponsible on
so many levels. She was a mother who engaged
in a risky occupation which was fraught
with peril. She had another child recently
and I suspect that is another Anna Nicole
who is your daddy situation. She lied,
she is morally responsible.
b. Sharpton/Jackson and race baiters of their
ilk. Supposedly men of the cloth, they neither
asked the truth or dealt with the melt-down
in the victim's life which drove her to
some poor lifestyle choices. She was simply
a pawn to be used and discarded by them, like
Tawanna Brawley. Funny how Sharpton demands
that Imus apologize. Now, that she is of
no further use, are these awesome men of
the cloth helping her to repent and heal her
soul and spirit or are they off to the next
media event?
c. Nifong, who would use his power for political
gain and his single-minded pursuit of power
which opened gaping wounds in race relations
and tore a community apart.
d. Community leaders, both Black and white who
fall for racially charged race scams which
perpetuate the victim status of low-income
people of color.
2. As to the legal responsibiliity
Definitely, the accuser and Nifong are potentially both criminally and civilly liable.
Some brave citizen needs to take Sharpton/Jackson down as well. I don't know that prosecuting the accuser is practical, although prosecution is certainly deserved. The lifechoices made by her have probably left her not competant.
3. Community Responsibility
The chessmasters in this drama, Nifong, Sharpton/Jackson and community leaders out for their personal gain are the real villians. Meanwhile, Sharpton/Jackson have to make their next press conference. The politics of personal destruction and moral outrage practiced by their ilk are the real cancer and that is where I direct my anger. Nifong, did not excercise prosecutorial discretion because he wanted to be elected and he played in to the worst instincts of Blacks in the community. The Black community is going to have to mature and stop being played like a fiddle by despicable despots, like Nifong.
Posted by: WVH on April 12, 2007 11:36 PMOn it's face, the accuser appears to have lied to investigators and perhaps under oath. The original prosecutor (Nifong) may have violated laws (obstruction of justice) or at least administrative guidelines that carry legal sanctions (i.e., misleading the court). He could also have violated federal civil rights statutes by unfairly prosecuting the students. At minimum, he should be liable for administrative sanctions (prosecutorial misconduct), professional punishment (disbarment), and civil actions (sue the a$$ off of him).
Posted by: Interested Observer on April 13, 2007 05:31 AMIf she lied prosecute her ass!
____________________________________
Pardon me (IF) she lied.
Can you find ANY proof to back up her story?
Three young men have had their lives trashed because of her lies.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 06:23 AMNifong should be prosecuted. He used this case to help in his re-election..
when a woman reports a rape, it is up to the state to examine the evidence, and press charges. She is guilty of reporting a crime that didn't happen, Nifong is Guilty of prosecuting the three
Sorry Chris, she was not! She made the call, she said they did it with zero proof, She press the charges and just kept on lying. (Gold Digger)
Nifong was wrong that's for sure, but she started this mess not him.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 07:20 AMGood luck getting anything done about it, though. Political correctness will win-out over common deency every time!!
Rome did not fall in 1 day. it was a slow cultural erosion that lead to weakness and moral decay. citizens just rolled over and did not resist. may be not be the next Rome. but i fear we are on the Appian Way soon.
laugh at the 'old fashioned'--but there are elements of time-tested societal survival skills woven in same. decadent societies self-destruct.
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on April 13, 2007 07:44 AM1)He said the boys were innocent of all the charges. He did not say they were not guilty. That is huge.
2)He also said, "We believe these cases were a result of a tragic rush to accuse and failure to verify serious allegations. Based on these significant inconsistencies of evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges."
I really hope to see Nifong prosecuted and the girl should bee prosecuted too. Nifong should get jail time and the girl should be in a psychiatric hospital and get the help she needs. If I were these boys I would sue Nifong for at least all the legal costs and possibly more.
Nifong is facing the NC Bar today. It will be interesting to see what they decide.
Posted by: TrueSoldier on April 13, 2007 08:39 AMThe worst part is that like Sharpton and Jackson, Nifong deliberately led the accuser along on a charade. It's on thing to be a uneducated, and sleazy liar trying to capitalize on race politics. But it's altogether another for an educated and sworn agent of the law to deliberately encourage and utilize an accuser. Nifong is yet another race shuckster.
And we see it all the time. Local leftist bloggers, career shucksters like Jackson and Sharpton, opportunists like Crystal Magnum, and the list goes on. Because of the left's culture of continuing racism in the directions that they deem appropriate, they have encouraged these sewer rat racists to rise up and spread their filth.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 13, 2007 09:04 AMNifong was wrong that's for sure, but she started this mess not him.
True, she made the call, but I can scream rape/robbery/murder/whatever all day long against someone, if there isn't any evidence, the prosecutor has an obligation to not file charges. Nifong did. Even after it should have become painfully clear to him that this was a load of crap, he hid the evidence the charges were probably false and continued to prosecute for his own personal gain (re-election). He could, and should, have dropped the charges and cleared the accused of any wrongdoing long ago, but refused in order to further his career. He is every bit as guilty as she is.
Posted by: Mike H. on April 13, 2007 09:10 AMI agree, but one thing that is grinding on me. The second someone get's into trouble, they say this person may not be of their right mind.
NOT buying this worthless excuse. I think this woman was looking to gold dig and it blew up in her face. (not a good liar)
I think the AG is saying this because they have eaten enough crow and hoping this mess will blow away.
Not for me. Jail time for both Nifong & her.
These guys have had their lives wrecked for who knows how many years. Think about it. Where ever they go or work the word RAPE will be right there.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 09:10 AMA note to John (#4): forget about it. They're tenured, and thus immune from retribution of any kind for the downright prevarications and malignant theorizing which inform their attitudes.
For those of you not involved in the world of contemporary academe, let me assure you that the Duke faculty are neither isolated in their malicious hatred of straight men, nor particularly virulent in their willingness to lie and demagogue any issue which suits their political agenda.
Finally, before criticizing the people of North Carolina for harboring such intellectual thugs, keep in mind that the tax dollars of the people of Washington continue to foster the same kind of irresponsible hatred, prejudice, and academic dishonesty on the part of faculty throughout our public institutions of higher learning -- perhaps most egregiously at Evergreen State College.
Posted by: Rey Smith on April 13, 2007 09:21 AMYou got a good point. These guys will never get their reputations back and in this day and age they will have to be looking over their shoulders at any job wondering if the woman they said high to may be like there accuser and claim sexual harassment or something.
I also have to agree with Rey Smith. I wonder if these boys could sue the faculty members that signed onto that letter and still have refused to apologize. Perhaps they could sue them for the cost of changing universities and the emotional stress caused by the faculty creating an enviornment that was hostile to them even thought they were innocent.
Posted by: TrueSoldier on April 13, 2007 09:44 AMI'm with you buddy... I'm not big on suing, but in this case. SUE them all.
This kind of non-sense needs to stop now.
Worse of all, when a real rape case comes up, this mess will make everyone of us wonder. Is it the truth or not.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 09:50 AMAny time they put on their resume:
Duke Lacrosse Team
People are going to think "rapist".
God forbid they go for a job at Google, and the HR person is a female.
They'll never get past this in life.
They are each owed a lifetime of wages from Duke and from the state and I hope they get it.
Posted by: John Bailo on April 13, 2007 10:42 AMFirst, I am not excusing the accusor. I think she is culpable. But, there is such a thing as prosecutorial discretion. Goodness, how many threads have we had about the former US Attorney failing to excercise his discretion to investigate and possibly prosecute allegations of voter fraud. If one looks at the text book obligations of what a prosecutor is supposed to do, it is not to get convctions solely, but it is to render justice. So, what would justice have looked like in this case.
1. There were allegations of rape or possibly
illegal sexual misconduct involving a group
of young men.
2. The prosecutor should have made a complete
investigation which could have included:
a. an investigation of the accuser and her
background. This might have included
prior crimes, allegations, and statements
about her charcter and veracity.
b. A psychological profile of the accuser
c. A lie detector of the accuser
d. Medical evidence
d. DNA evidence from the accused and other
possible sexual partners
There is no evidence that I am aware of that Nifong conducted a thorough investigation. He was in the middle of a tough campaign and he took shortcuts to appeal to a voter base. What prosecutorial discretion means is that sometimes a prosecutor elects not to go forward.
Now, as to accusations of sexual misconduct, anyone here aware of someone going through a bitter divorce where one of the issues is whether a parent actually abused one or more of the children. It is up to the trier of fact to wade through that garbage as well.
This young woman by her choice of lifestyle put herself and her children into a risky situation which was made worse by a prosecutor who could have pulled the plug, race pimps who cared not a whit for her real situation of working as an exotic dancer and not getting her on the right path, and a community so used to race baiting pimps of all colors they got sucked in.
Now, as for the young men. I am sorry they were adversely affected, but they choose, as so many young people do to put themselves in a risky situation as well. Apparently, the lacrosse team was an accident waiting to happen and unfortunately, these particular kids were not the ones most at Duke thought were in for a particular fall. Let's not confer sainthood on them for their particular bad choices. I hope that they sue the pants off those repsonsible. My two cents.
Posted by: WVH on April 13, 2007 10:48 AMDNA evidence from the accused and other
possible sexual partners
________________________________________
Excuse me, but DNA was done and nothing came back on these men. BUT she did have DNA from others? Now tell me, you've been raped and you go back to having sex again? Not buying it!
Nifong knew he nad no dna for these men but said zip.
Now you brought up that that these men rented these call girls. I guess you haven't been to college or never been around say Major foot ball teams. It happens and all groups are dumb.
But it happens. Dumb people do dumb things. But wrecking the lives of these men is way beyond words and worst of all. Now any woman who does scream rape will be looked at in the wrong.
This dumb lady did so much more damage to all rape cases!
Exactly.....Nifong actually withheld the DNA evidence proving the 3 men innocent for WEEKS, while his election campaign gained momentum (i believe). The Defense attorneys where screaming, but they couldn't get anyones attention.
Nifong should be in jail for the Rape of those three men. The Duke professor's should be in the cell next to him....
Posted by: Chris on April 13, 2007 11:36 AM1. As to your first point, if the DNA doesn't support the charge, then the prosecutor doesn't file the charge, hence, an excercise of prosecutor discretion.
2. As to your second point, I have taught at college and worked with kids, so I am aware of the things they can get into. See, the following for another take:
"....They were part of a team that collected $800 to purchase the time of two strippers.
Their team specifically requested at least one white stripper.
During the incident, racial epithets were hurled at the strippers.
Colin Finnerty was charged with assault in Washington, DC, in 2005.
The young men were able to retain a battery of top-flight attorneys, investigators and media strategists.
As students of Duke University or other elite institutions, these young men will get on with their privileged lives. There is a very large cushion under them--the one that softens the blows of life for most of those who go to Duke or similar places, and have connections through family, friends and school to all kinds of prospects for success. They are very differently situated in life from, say, the young women of the Rutgers University women's basketball team.
And, MOST IMPORTANT, there are many, many cases of prosecutorial misconduct across our country every year. The media covers few, if any, of these cases. Most of the victims in these cases are poor or minority Americans--or both. I would hate to say the color of their skin is one reason journalists do not focus on these victims of injustices perpetrated by police and prosecutors, but I am afraid if we ask ourselves the question honestly, we would likely find that it is. Look for a moment at what James Giles endured:
I hope we all keep him and others in mind, as we cover the celebrated exoneration of well-heeled, well-connected, well-publicized young men whose conduct, while not illegal, was not entirely admirable, either. They aren't heroes. They aren't boys. They are young men who were victimized by a reckless prosecutor--and had the resources the fight him off."
http://blogs.abcnews.com/terrymoran/2007/04/dont_feel_too_s_1.html
My point is not that there was not a wrong done to these particular young men, but they are not saints. They, unlike many had the resources to defend themselves. Now, they will be able to seek further redress. This is just a fuller exploration of the subject.
Posted by: WVH on April 13, 2007 11:44 AMIf you taught in College then is NOT uncommon. (parties)
Their team specifically requested at least one white stripper.
During the incident, racial epithets were hurled at the strippers.
Colin Finnerty was charged with assault in Washington, DC, in 2005
This came from ABC and sorry if I don't buy it right off the bat. ( yes I read it too)
Yes Colin was in trouble years ago. JUST like the girl who caused this. So what's your point?
I'm thankful they had the money to fight back. If not these men would be in jail & convicted.
Shall be bring up Sharpton & Jackson.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 11:55 AM1. First, the piece was an opinion piece from
Terry Moran and just like you or I are
entitled to their opinion, it is simply a
fuller exploration. People do dumb things
and college students because of their age
and maturity do really dumb things. They
are not saints. Poor choices by the accuser
AND these kids led to this mess.
2. Neither Colin, nor the accuser are saints and
that is my point.
3. Oh, please bring up Sharpton/Jackson. I do.
Since you can read, read my posts above and
go back into the archive and read what I have
to say about them. I can only infer, since
I don't know, that the statement is your
attempt to say that all people from a group
will defend someone from that same group
even when they are obviously wrong. Is that
what you are trying to infer? Because we
live in a morally relative culture that
great quote by Cato the recent "morality is
in the eye of the beholder" seems to be
what you are implying. It doesn't matter
the color of the race pimp, the behavior is
wrong. Similarly, it doesn't matter the color
of the lame college student, they are no saints
and lame behavior sometimes gets one in
trouble.
First of all, yes I read what you wrote and we can drop the color of the persons skin. It has nothing to do with what happen unless your Jackson or Sharpton.
I brought up these to race batters because when it first happened they jumped into the fray and do you really think that if these men didn't have money they would have been able to fight back against these two powerful men? Please. There is only one answer here. (NO)
Plus is Jackson going to still going to give this girl a free college education as he said he would?
Now what Colin did was dumb, but he didn't call rape on someone and were both know that word is very loaded! Just like the saying (do you still beat your wife) It's a no win.
Now what these kids did by renting the call girls wasn't smart, but as I said it goes on in PRO-sports too. So we can stop pointing now.
and I could care less if they wanted white and black call girls. You know something, both groups have pretty looking women. Again I don't see the point.
It's just a catch word to make you think the were race driven.
Either way, I think we have talked this one to death,(agree to disagree) unless you want to talk about David M.
Just kidding.... (-:
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 12:43 PMJackson is not giving anyone a free anything. One of my major beefs with the lamestream media is that they don't follow the money. Jackson/Sharpton have not had the kind of financial scrutiny as to where dollars they collect actually go. I know the Sec of State here does a very good job of publishing how much charities spend on overhead and how much actually goes to programs. I usually don't sic the IRS on anyone, but IRS have at them.
These guys are frauds, who if they were men of the cloth would have noticed that the accuser was a woman in melt-down and would not have put her through a media cicus for their own personal gain. Some one once said I don't care what you print about me, just spell my name right. These guys are all about personal gain. Jackson's daughter-in-law just got elected to the Chicago City Council and his sons were awarded a beer distribtuorship. The prize for the south side disctrict rep'd by the daughter-in-law is 100s of millions in development for a huge plot of land.
Linking the story of the the players and this accuser is the fact that the press produces a financial windfall for Sharpton/Jackson because they are never investigated. Meanwhile, the players are slimed, the accusers life and her children's lives are in tattors, race-baiting continues because it is so successful for Sharpton/Jackson and they move on to the next media event. Until the lamestream media fully investigates and my community rejects the politics of race baiting, there will be another event in the future. Now, don't get me started on pro sports, that is another thread.
Posted by: WVH on April 13, 2007 01:04 PMCan't disagree with you.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 13, 2007 01:10 PMNow, where are the idiots that claim "women don't lie"?
Posted by: H Moul on April 13, 2007 03:35 PMBad behavior is distributed among both genders, all races, religions, and creeds. I am interested in where you got your statistic and the accuracy
of the claim that 40 -50% are false. Just as the woman Stranger columnist might be a tad bit over on one side, are you a tad bit over on the other? I do not know what percentage of claims are false.