Art Thiel explores alternatives for the Sonics, though he does put the best one in second place.
Build it privately
The owners of the San Francisco Giants tried four times to get public funding for a new ballpark before paying for it themselves. The two NBA arenas nearest KeyArena, the Rose Garden in Portland the GM Place in Vancouver, B.C., were privately funded, by Seattle billionaires. The Pepsi Center in Denver, the building that most closely resembles what Bennett wants in Renton, was privately funded.
Thiel doesn't mention the possibility that the personal behavior of far too many NBA players — Shawn Kemp comes to mind — may be one reason that fans here are less willing to support the Sonics. But Thiel works for the PI, and so I suppose that we shouldn't expect too much from him.
(Should entertainment ever get public subsidies? That's a very large question. My general answer is that it is legitimate to use public money for places that people can do things, but not for places where people can watch other people do things. And that there should be limits even for the first, which is why I am not in favor of more wilderness areas, though I love to hike in them.)
Posted by Jim Miller at April 23, 2007 08:43 AM | Email ThisBut that's not what the owners want. They want to raid the tax base and get the public to pay for a Roman Colosseum with gold encrusted "sky boxes" so they can watch their own private team.
Posted by: John Bailo on April 23, 2007 09:40 AMOtherwise, it makes perfectly good sense to build it with public funds if the city and county determine that there is an economic benefit greater than the economic cost when doing so.
If the city and county determines that the economic benefit is greater than the cost to building it and they refuse to build it for political reasons, then the city and county have some explaining to do.
Posted by: Doug on April 23, 2007 09:45 AMI read that article and came away with the feeling Thiel is out of touch. I came away with the feeling he thinks the citizen should help pay for these billionaire's business.
I know there were several indications he was unbiased and presented all the options, but bottom line, this is his livelihood we are fooling with.
Sports, unlike the old days, is not for the working class. The cost of tickets makes it nigh impossible for most of us to attend more than one or two games a year. The supposed $5 or $10 tickets at the Arena is nothing more than a gimmick so they can say tickets are affordable. So what if 20 or so can attend games cheap? How can I get one of those seats?
Personally, I never saw anything wrong with the Kingdome. I still don't know a good reason to tear it down when all I heard was that it didn't fit luxury boxes.
And you are hearing this from a gymrat- I am getting more and more disinterested in sports every day.
Posted by: swatter on April 23, 2007 09:55 AMThe new arena would be a big loser for the average fan - more expensive lower bowl tickets, more luxury boxes which push the upper level even higher making the view of the court so distant that you would be watching the action on the big screen. I went to the United Center in Chicago several years ago, and I would have rather watched a game on TV than sit in the upper level there again.
Why would the average, middle class fan support a massive public subsidy for this? It will make traffic in that area a nightmare, and the tickets s/he will buy will have worse views.
If Bennett wants to privately fund the arena, have at it. Or maybe he thinks the people of OKC will give him the massive subsidy he wants, then great. Enjoy the Sonics OKC. Just go see the Huskies at Hec Ed if you need a basketball fix - NCAA basketball is a much better product anyway.
Posted by: Palouse on April 23, 2007 10:06 AMBesides the falling ceiling tiles, uncomfortable seating, and birds getting trapped in there, I think the Kingdome was worthy. The new stadiums are a lot nicer and Safeco Field really shows off the downtown skyline in a way the Kingdome never could.
I looked into that this year, single ticket holders are regulated to the nosebleed sections of Hec-Ed. All the decent seats (i.e. not the last 5 rows) are reserved for season ticket holders.
Posted by: Cato on April 23, 2007 10:22 AMSeattle doesn't need an NBA team to be a great city. Let them go to Oklahoma.
(Oklahoma City needs all the help it can get.)
Posted by: johnny on April 23, 2007 11:24 AMSeattle doesn't need an NBA team to be a great city. Let them go to Oklahoma.
(Oklahoma City needs all the help it can get.)
Posted by: johnny on April 23, 2007 11:25 AMFrankly, I see and feel no difference between Kingdome and KeyArena and Safeco Field seats. They are all uncomfortable.
Ceiling tiles- one shot deal.
I go to Costco to see birds, so you have me there.
Posted by: swatter on April 23, 2007 12:35 PMand take the Mariners with you.
Now if only Safeco Field could show off a decent baseball team...
Posted by: NurseWilliam on April 24, 2007 03:04 AMI have been gathering information concerning subsidies for pro sports teams. I have found academic researchers Coates and Humphreys analyzed data on 53,052 persons, involving 37 metro areas and spanning a 22 year time horizon. The researchers found real wages were LESS for persons employed in the food service and hotel industries who were living in communities with professional sports teams. Coates, D. & Humphreys, B. R. The Growth Effects of Sports Franchises, Stadia and Arenas. Working Paper No. 97-02. Baltimore: University of Maryland, Baltimore County, 1997. (GV716.C63 1997)
The same researchers focused on DC's attempt to promote baseball. They found that net economic impact in the 37 cities that hosted professional sports teams over nearly 30 years was a REDUCED real per capita income over the ENTIRE METRO AREA. Caught Stealing: Debunking the Economic Case for D.C. Baseball by Dennis Coates and Brad R. Humphreys. Cato Institute: October 27, 2004 Briefing Paper no. 89.
IF IT IS MOSTLY PAID BY TOURIST TAXES IT DOESN'T HURT ME RIGHT?
Raising tourist taxes drains fuel from the local economic engine. Every dollar taken from a tourist's wallet means one less dollar that could be spent in our local economy. That means less money for local businesses. Many local businesses compete with the pro teams for the same entertainment dollars in local resident's pockets. But unlike those teams those businesses don't get subsidies. Unlike those teams, those businesses pay property taxes!
AREN'T THE BOWL GAMES GOOD FOR CITIES?
Economists report that promoters use the promise of an all star game or league championship as lure to construct new stadiums or arenas using tax dollars. Yet, analysis of taxable sales in Florida over the period 1980 to 2004 reveals that on, average, mega-events ranging from the World Cup to the World Series have been associated with REDUCTIONS in taxable sales in host regions of $5 to $10 million per month. "Selling the Big Game: Estimating the Economic Impact of Mega-Events through Taxable Sales," by Baade, Baumann & Matheson (2005)
Economists Matheson & Baade (2005) examined issues related to the economic impact of sports championships on host cities' economies. Noting that proponents usually claim large positive effects of such championships, economic analysis concludes that the impact is likely much smaller than touted and may even be negative. "The Paradox of Championships: Be Careful What You Wish For, Sports Fans, by Matheson & Baade (2005)
WHAT ABOUT QUALITY OF LIFE?
Joyce Hogi testified before Congress "The New York Yankees have been our neighbors for over 80 years. Given the poverty and unemployment rates in the South Bronx, it would seem that no economic benefits have been realized..." Look around neighborhoods where arenas and stadiums are located. Has the neighborhood gotten better?
I have created a blog with information on this topic. I receive no income from it. Unfortunately, I am finding that links often get removed or the post completely deleted. If interested go to Google or another search engine and search blogs (sub tab) with my name. The blog name is Orlando Vanity Press.
It's your community but we are all Americans. We look out for each other when someone wants to pick our pockets.
Regards,
Ray Kockentiet
Orlando, FL