The Seattle Times reports on yesterday's gathering of thousands of self-proclaimed illegal immigrants:
Seattle police, out in full force, reported no arrests.Maybe they didn't notice anything illegal.
The P-I's Robert L. Jamieson, Jr. questions Seattle's happy embrace of illegal immigants and reports on some folks who raise legitimate concerns, mostly lower-income workers whose livelihoods are threatened by illegal immigrant labor:
an honest citywide, even nationwide discussion is impossible if organizers of these marches cannot respect other reasonable points of view -- and no, I'm not referring to those knuckle-draggers, who exploit tabloid stories about a handful of undocumented workers who drink and drive and crash, killing people."Knuckle-draggers"? Good thing the P-I is above name-calling! But more to the point, Jamieson's acknowledgement of the social costs of unchecked immigration is commendable. Although he would have done better to add that one of the main economic drivers of illegal immigration is that the illegal workers are willing to work without demanding the minimum wage and other legal labor standards that have been imposed in order to "protect" lower-wage Americans. Nor should Jamieson delegitimize the opinions of those who are concerned about illegal immigrants who break other laws, jeopardize public safety and strain the criminal justice system. Even Mrs. Gregoire is concerned about the costs of incarcerating illegal immigrants.
Another reasonable point is made by a Minuteman counter-protester who was quoted in the P-I's article on the rally
The money earned by undocumented Mexican workers doesn't contribute to the local economy because so much of it is sent back to MexicoThe Financial Times reports that such remittances to all of Latin America and the Caribbean totaled $62 billion last year. Meanwhile, U.S. taxpayers are made to pay for education, healthcare and other social benefits for illegal residents.
There are a lot of legtimate policy issues regarding the social and economic impacts of illegal immigration. It would help to have a more honest public discussion of these issues, respecting a broad range of views. Unfortunately, I wouldn't look to the mainstream media or the governing class to welcome a diversity of opinions.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at May 02, 2007 11:17 AM | Email ThisBoth sides are too invested and conflicted to consider any possible alternative.
It should be said that in Washington at least illegal immigrants contribute as much to the state as just about any other person of their income level. Illegal immigrants pay sales tax, and indirectly though rent pay property taxes. At the federal level they do pay some taxes if working with a false social security number.
Posted by: Giffy on May 2, 2007 11:35 AMThis is the theory: Since Mexico and other states have failed at providing sufficient basic services to their citizens and they rely on remittances from their US based citizens to sustain the economy, why not annex them?
The answer would be sovereignty. Mexico wants to claim internal sovereignty, but wants the US as a safety valve. Meanwhile the elites like Carlos Slim grow ever richer from government granted monopolies. Mexico is in danger of becoming the next Venezuela. The middle class and talented of that country that are not already in Miami, Canada, Spain or Portugal are headed there.
Labor economics is not my field, but it is a responsible theory that mass migration of low-skilled workers with little legal recourse depresses wages for low-skilled US citizens.
There should be a serious discussion of the impacts of migration on wages, the environment, and the fact it allows the corrupt and irresponsible governments and elites of the home countries of migrants to continue to exist without reform. Outside international pressure is necessary for reform, otherwise these countries will become Zimbabwe.
Posted by: WVH on May 2, 2007 11:39 AMWhether they should be here is a different question. Is it wrong to sneak into a county, of course. However simply saying that is not enough.
Do you want to deport them all. If so are you willing to pay much hirer prices for goods and possibly force small farms into bankruptcy. I would say that is wrong too.
On the other hand if we ere to simply give amnesty we would encourage more illegal immigration and likewise put a strain on the economy because now they would be due minimum wage etc.
A guest worker program is another option, but difficult to administer. If we time limit it how do we make sure people leave. There is also the question of what labor laws should apply to guest workers. We also have to pay for the staff to handle the program. There are 12 million illegals here now. thats a lot of staff.
Personally I don't really now what the answer is, but I know that the ideologs on both sides are doing more harm then good.
Posted by: Giffy on May 2, 2007 11:59 AMMexicans, just like every other person in the world, would rather stay in Mexico if they get good jobs there.
Unfortunately, immigrants have contributed much to growth and productivity in the US. At some point, we will wish we had them back...
Posted by: John Bailo on May 2, 2007 12:02 PMI just hope it isn't your SSN.
I'm one of the many Baby Boomers who will retire soon.
If the sysyem doesn't have enough pressure because I'm retiring just wait for the mess our children will be left with.. Illegals are going to kill the system.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 12:05 PMUnfortunately, immigrants have contributed much to growth and productivity in the US. At some point, we will wish we had them back...
________________________________
Sorry john, but as someone who lived and came from SO.Calif you have no idea who much they have swamped all of the goverment systems down there plus the huge increase in crime.
Go spent one day in East San Diego or East LA.
Next, we need to find illegals currently in this country and quickly return them to their countries of origin (or whatever other nation agrees to accept them). As for they jobs they do that Americans won't do, I say we exploit the prison population to find workers to pick fruit or do other low-skilled/dangerous jobs that illegals do now. There's nothing wrong with making prisoners work a little (or even a lot, for that matter), and if it means bringing back the chain gang, I'm all for it.
As for those who want to call me racist or whatever, I could care less.
Posted by: Libertarian on May 2, 2007 12:11 PM> "Knuckle-draggers"?
I applaud the restraint of your newspaper. A more accurate term: Racists spreading prejudice & bigotry against Mexicans based upon cultural and socioeconomic differences.
> The money earned by undocumented Mexican workers doesn't contribute to the local economy because so much of it is sent back to Mexico
Oh my, these "illegals" are so very evil.
Shouldn't they spend their money on SUVs and Wal-Mart and McDonald's so that they can emulate the wastefulness of obese America!
Let me tell you: Fat, lazy America is threatened by Thin, hungry Mexicans. Do you know why? Because the Mexicans are better than the Americans.
These Americans ought to lose their jobs to the Mexicans. They consider their American Lifestyle an entitlement and that is why they are struggling against a Free Labor Market.
"The immigration issue confounds simple analysis. Nobody has it completely
right; nobody has it completely wrong. Yet Bob Wallace's levelheaded,
business-like column in Sunday's Journal comes as close as anything to
getting to its core.
Not since Prohibition has America experienced such a level of winked at,
openly flaunted lawbreaking, not only from illegal immigrants, but also from
those who profit by employing them or whose lives are made more enjoyable,
comfortable, or affordable by cheap fast food, cheap produce, clean sheets
in a hotel, cheaper new homes, and more. Nobody's hands are completely
clean; nobody's heart completely pure.
A solution defies traditional political or ideological analysis.
Politicians, pundits, and "we the people" won't acknowledge that no matter
what version of "the answer" they espouse it will be tempered by an
inevitable compromise that reconciles diametrically opposed points of view.
Until then they'll continue name-calling instead of reaching across the
aisle to develop something sensible for today and for tomorrow. While the
clock ticks we're stuck with simplistic rhetoric and knee-jerk reactions
from all quarters.
What's at stake? Terrorist threats, secure borders, respect for law, the
economy, social service costs, English as the national language, the future
face of America, and the simple fact that this issue profoundly impacts
millions of people, legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, and citizens
alike.
Often what's at stake transcends the mere political. In many American
homes, immigration is intimate and deeply personal; it's family - for some
of us, it means everything."
On this issue, no body benefits by choosing up sides. If for no other reason than there are a ton of realities people from all points of the ideological compass wish were otherwise, whatever eventual "solution" is arrived at will undoubtedly be a bitter pill for all to swallow.
The Piper
Posted by: Piper Scott on May 2, 2007 12:13 PM> Next, we need to find illegals currently in this country and quickly return them to their countries of origin (or whatever other nation agrees to accept them). As for they jobs they do that Americans won't do, I say we exploit the prison population to find workers to pick fruit or do other low-skilled/dangerous jobs that illegals do now.
The problem with this strategy, Libertarian, is that Americans are so extremely obese & lazy that they cannot do the jobs which the Mexicans are doing now.
If Americans were fit, healthy, thin and motivated ... well, that would at least level the playing field a bit. But Americans are at a disadvantage because they can barely move their fat bodies at a pace to accomplish any sort of physical labor.
Americans cannot compete with the Mexicans. The Mexicans are better than the Americans.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 12:16 PMOnce again, never said it was ok. It should be noted however that the money paid in by illegals is lost to them and helps prop up the system to the tune of about 7 billion a year. Thats one of the controversy surrounding any type of legalization plan is whether they should be able to get that money back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090
Libertarian,
Throughout our history we have brought hard working industrious people to this country. Most began working in factories, building railways, etc, but they moved up. And more importantly their children did. In the 20's and 30's people thought the influx of catholic, irish, Italians, etc would destroy our county. Remember the mafia. It didn't and we prospered. Now 5 of the nine Supreme Court Justices are Catholic and two are Italian. Not my favorite justices, but hose counting.
Its really a great scam if you think about. We take the best hardest working people form around the world, bring them here and make them part of our country. From a business model it is quite brilliant. Why would we ever want to give that up. (note this is a bout immigration overall, not illegal immigration in particular.)
Posted by: Giffy on May 2, 2007 12:21 PM
"It is the result of a corrupt and failed government in Mexico and other states."
Very true. That's why we have immigration laws.
There is one way to force the US government to enforce existing immigration laws. Welcome all illegal immigrants! Imagine if a border state openly welcomed as many illegals as could cross the border with only one condition: they must agree to a free bus ticket to any of the other 47 contiguous states (plus, throw in $100 cash).
I think we would see a new kind of "immigration reform" in very short order.
Posted by: Ken on May 2, 2007 12:27 PMIf not for the welfare state, the problem would be self-policing. If you had to work and an illegal took your job, you would complain loudly.
I can see why your on the left.
We are talking about people who broke our laws. Yet the left always seems to forget that.
So please stop saying these hard working honest people.
You may not notice, but if we don't enforce one law, why enforce any at all?
I've lived and worked in these Gettos & slums in LA and seen what illegals have done to us.
Again Lib's and the left talk about a (living wage) yet you say nothing about these people who push down wages or push out many of the blacks and low income people.
> We created a welfare state that makes it possible for citizens to not work. The choice between being lazy and getting paid by Uncle Sam (your tax dollars) vs. a dirty, entry-level job is too obvious. However, if you are an illegal immigrant, you have to work and so you take the job.
Conservatives are wonderful in their ability to shift effortlessly from racism & prejudice to bigotry against the poor.
Given that conservatives are most inclined to complain loudly about this "problem" I suppose that they are the most threatened by competition from the Mexicans.
Conservatives are opponents of capitalism when they seek to prevent immigrants from getting jobs & spending their earnings as they see fit.
Mexicans are here because the free market demands their labor. They are going to stay, too, because many Republicans employ the Mexicans and they benefit too greatly from their employment.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 12:50 PMGuess again. With proper "motivation," prisoners can out-Mexican the Mexicans!
That point was directed at immigrants overall. However it is pretty hard to deny that most people who come here illegally are hard working. Go out to Yakima and watch them picking fruit while living in a shanty town.
Of course they broke the law, and we do need to find a solution. But they did so out of desperation for themselves and their families. For the most part these are people who simply want a better life and are willing to work for it. Personally I want a solution that brings people like that to our country, but in a more controlled manner.
We can always count on the few, the foolish, and the feel good to parrot the nonsense, the alledged upsides regarding what is tantamount to an invasion by people to stupid to make it in their own country...
Typical of the libtard chorus are David Matthews clueless as ever and apparently never having seen a law that wasn't worth breaking...
The funniest thing about libtards is their inability to feel shame at saying the dumbest things...
We have someone named Ragnar who is obviously quoting a completely uninformed moron, Jay Leno...
Then again maybe Leno doesn't have access to a public library or the internet... Who knows?
Then there is someone named Giffy who never bothered to take a look at the alledged taxes these parasitic Mexicans supposedly pay and he/she most definitely never took a look at the costs these parasitic Mexican impose upon productive people...
What's even funnier about Giffy is quoting from the New York Times...LOL!
Heck! That's like taking Nickels or McDermott at their word...LOL!
Then we have someone by the name of Bailo who says: "immigrants have contributed much to growth and productivity in the US" which actually makes good sense if the term immigrant is used to describe someone who came here legally...
Posted by: juandos on May 2, 2007 01:04 PMFirst of all, even though it doesn't matter.
we have NO idea how many are really here!
Yes I understand the "desperation" of these people, but if you think Mexico will change your dreaming, and by not enforcing our laws the people will not fight to change their government. Why should they, just come across the border. I have laugh though Mexico's government is what Libs & the left want. Total control of your people and most of your big biz.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 01:09 PMCato, try spending say 30 days in Mexico helping out. See what real poor is all about.
What does enjoying life a problem with you.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 01:16 PMI say we use Mexico's problems to our advantage. Lets say you have two companies. One is highly successful an the other is floundering. As the successful company wouldn't you want to bring in all the quality people from the floundering country. Certainly not all, but perhapses the best. Especially if you are not able to satisfy your labor needs through other means.
I am not for unlimited immigration, nor do I really support illegal immigration. But I would take advantage of the fact that there are people who are willing to work hard and want to live in this country. Our birthrate is in decline and our elderly population booming. At the same time US citizens are becoming more educated and less willing to say pick fruit. The fact is we need the workers.
Posted by: Giffy on May 2, 2007 01:20 PMNo I'm no longer in the Army and just moved to WA state in the late 90's.
I was working in LA before I moved here.
As I just said to Giffy. You want to see what the illegals have done, try east LA or Compton. Just off of their 405 freeway
But I'd be packing if I was you.
As I said before Mexico will never fix her job problems, why should they, the second amount of money coming into their country comes from us.
Please note... very few people coming from Mexico have little or no education. Another huge problem for our schools who no matter how much we spend, are busting at the seams.
So I ask you why should American people be hit with all of these problems?
Seems to me this is another LIB/Left problem.
You keep wanting US to pay and pay for someone elses problems. And I don't even want to get into the health problems coming out of Mexico. )-:
Your prejudice, bigotry & racism against the Mexicans is sufficient to demonstrate why the anti-immigration movement is flawed beyond the point of political redemption.
Conservatives might need to be reminded: You don't own the congress anymore. Come 2009, you won't own the White House, either.
Game Over!
Your dreams are dashed. Your struggle lost. The Mexicans are here to stay. Their children are American citizens. When they start to vote I suppose that bigots will find winning elections nearly impossible.
Why are conservatives so busy fighting on behalf of so many lost causes?
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 01:41 PMFor just once in your life (grow-up)
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 01:46 PMPick a line that's enforceable, at least marginally fair, and achievable.
You're a second generation illegal that didn't sneak in yourself, but parents brought you, got a 4.0 in high school, and would like to attend college? If you commit to wanting to become a citizen, yes absolutely we want you.
You have a criminal record beyond having snuck across the border? No Scooby Snack for you. We don't want you and we're going to actually kick you out.
That probably gets the 10% polarized extremes at opposite ends of the spectrum, but ranges the debate of where the black and white should probably fall.
Lower middle-class Mom that's a cleaning lady off the books, snuck in 20 years ago, has a clean record, isn't on food stamps, doesn't speak English, but encourages her kids that are getting B's in school? I think let her apply, improve her English, and aspire to be a citzen.
Lower middle-class Dad that picks asparagus off the books, didn't sneak in but overstayed a work permit, no record, no food stamps, doesn't speak English, wants to make enough money here each season to then go back to Mexico in the winter and eventually retire? No citizenship opportunity, fine him for the overstay but let them stay as a guest worker if they follow the rules.
It's all about a nation of laws. Currently we're ignoring the stupid ones we have on the books. Make them reasonable...or at least less stupid.
Matty want about this lady who played by the rules but can't become a US citzen because so many others did break the rules?
What do we tell her?
Sorry..........
Most of the money goes out of country.
Posted by: Bull Maxon on May 2, 2007 02:03 PM> It's all about a nation of laws.
A nation of laws is meaningless when the laws are unjust.
Where are the conservative defenders of capitalism? Where are the conservative free market advocates?
These twelve million people are illegal only by virtue of the unjust and immortal immigration laws of the United States.
To solve the problem America only needs to change its laws. Very simple. Very easy. Just. Good for the economy.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 02:04 PM> Most of the money goes out of country.
Who are you to tell these people what they ought to do with their money?
Conservatism flirts with facism with sentiments such as those expressed above.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 02:06 PMProblem with the story is, absolutely NO DETAILS were provided about the title, state, or initiative number.
I contacted the newsroom by phone and e-mail and though the staff tried to help with those questions, they couldn't.
Cany any of YOU help???
Posted by: Bart Cannon on May 2, 2007 02:18 PMAt c. 12 million and counting, you should be against all immigration or do you see it as a way to hasten the demise of the country you hate so much?
Posted by: dan on May 2, 2007 02:25 PMThere is a book which summarizes that history in a single, very concise chapter. And in another chapter it outlines how the school systems in Mexico actually teach the ninos their patriotic duty of "reconquista".
One of my best friends is the daughter of Jose Angel Gutierrez, the "Mexican Hitler" and the man whose most famous quote is "We must eliminate the Gringo".
The author of the book to which I refer is the famous "American "Nazi"", Pat Buchanan. The book is titled "A State of Emergency". If you consider yourself a person seeking "the other side of the story", you will read it. It's probably already been remaindered and available for $5.00 at Amazon.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on May 2, 2007 02:31 PMI applaud your call for honest discussion, if only you can stop cracking mean-spirited jokes long enough to participate.
Posted by: Bruce on May 2, 2007 02:35 PM> the school systems in Mexico actually teach the ninos
Good to see that conservatives allow their prejudice, bigotry and racism out in forums such as SoundPolitics.
Don't you know: The United States of America has a more ghastly history of "conquista" than the Mexicans. Need I remind you? Americans were the original illegal immigrants in Texas and California. The United States engaged in aggressive, immoral wars to seize this territory from Mexico.
So the Mexicans have a claim to this land and also this nation.
They are here and they are not leaving. Get used to it. You'll be happier if you accept reality.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 02:39 PMWell, I have to laugh. Who do you think is going to change your bedpan once the immigrants leave? You're kids and grandkids are going to cut Social Security and put you on the street because they don't want to be the cheap labor pushing your wheelchair, gramps.
What is more this whole country would be in geezerdom if it weren't for immigrants.
You know what else? Mexican girls are cute -- in fact, I went to the Immigration Rally last year in Seattle and you know what I saw? Beautiful olive skinned Mexigirls of all ages...totally beautiful, and best of all -- they were all about 4' 5" -- perfect size for me. Nothing like the gigantic Brunhilda Blondes of the Pacific Northwest.
So, as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have the Mexicans here than you.
Posted by: John Bailo on May 2, 2007 02:39 PMI think there's a pretty simple solution that will allow our folks in DC to come together on this issue. The states are taking the wrong approach.
Let the border states welcome all the illegals, provide them with food and clothing, instructions on how to apply for entitlement services and a free bus ticket to the greater DC area. (Boston or New York would be optional, as would any city in Michigan).
Simple. Effective.
Posted by: Ken on May 2, 2007 02:43 PM
What is a "mexican"? You might be a little out of your league here. Is it an aztec or a conquistador?
One of my best friends is the daughter of the man who wants all gringos dead. So it looks like I am able to find happiness in today's politics.
Can you?
Posted by: Bart Cannon on May 2, 2007 03:00 PMI'm talking concrete people, sheet rockers, painters, landscapers, insulaters, etc. that make the economy go around.
I am not expecting any answers but just think about it for a while.
Posted by: swatter on May 2, 2007 03:15 PMhe never seems to vote with his $$ & his feet and move out of the U.S.--why?
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on May 2, 2007 03:22 PMI just want to get this straight... Bart Cannon (who is presumably white) says he is best friends with a Mexican who's dad is famous for wanting all white people dead. But because Bart points out that their school system teaches the ninos (which I understand is the Spanish term for children) about reconquista, this makes Bart the racist and bigot.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Posted by: Mike H on May 2, 2007 03:25 PMemail subject line: HAPPY BIRTHDAY
Last week we celebrate a special birthday...
Monica Lewinsky turned 31.
Can you believe it? It seems like only yesterday she was
crawling around the White House on her hands and knees.
They grow up so fast, don't they?"
Now back to regularly scheduled blogging.
ILLEGALS have and deserve no rights, except the right to be sent home or pay for the crime of breaking into our country.
Regarding the red herring about all those wonderful hapless criminals doing the work no one else will do:
BS!
It's called the law of supply and demand. THEY artificial screwed up the system and screwed American workers when they ILLEGALLY came into the country and made themselves available to work for pennies on the dollar. Granted, their screw up was impetus for many to get a better education in order to find work, but the bottom line is IF they weren't prostituting themselves for pennies, wages would be higher for those jobs, which of course would make the jobs more desirable. Deporting the ILLEGALS would cause some wild waves in the cost of some food, hotels, whatever, but eventually supply and demand would again work its magic and things would level out. Not every American is capable of college work; not every American is capable of mangerial work. The ILLEGALS have stolen work from those Americans.
Furthermore, the OTHER red herring about the ILLEGALS paying tax is also just more sleight of hand BS. Those on welfare, for whom we are all paying ALSO pay taxes... big whoop ... it's a great big giant zero sum game.
When they are here ILLEGALLY they are thieves stealing from every law abiding, tax paying American.
Furthermore, I am only a 2nd generation American. When my families came here from Austria and Italy, they came to be AMERICANS, not hyphenated-Americans. They learned the lauguage of AMERICA. They expected, hoped and WANTED their children to be taught in the language of AMERICA. The came here to follow the rules not break them. My grandfather was so in awe, so desperate to be an American that when the officials at Ellis Island said his surname sounded and was spelled "too German", he allowed them to change it the way THEY thought it should be. He understood he was here to prove himself worthy of this country, not bully and steal from the it. The key words here kiddies are ASSIMILATION, not DEMANDS and LEGAL, not illegal.
From the L.A. Times: (yea it's dated (get over it)
1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County ). THAT'S **ONE** COUNTY!
Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.
Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from illegal immigration.
The cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ]. The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.
29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
If they can come to this country to raise Hell and demonstrate by the thousands, WHY can't they take charge over the corruption in their own country?
DID YOU KNOW that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals?
... that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County , California is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members, 98% of which are Mexican and Asian.
The libs are not interested in the laws of this country, they are not interested in American workers: they are interested in being heroes to 12 million ILLEGALS because they want to count their votes.
2,000 years ago, Moses said, "Pick up your shovel, pack your ass, mount your camel and I shall lead you to the Promised Land."
200-plus years ago, George Washington said, "Get off your ass, use your shovel, clear the land, grow plants for camels and it will be the Promised Land."
Last year, the Congress of the United States said, "Si, Amigos, throw away your shovel, sit on your ass, light your Camels, we're giving you the Promised Land."
We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.
End of diatribe... for the moment.
> just want to get this straight... Bart Cannon (who is presumably white) says he is best friends with a Mexican who's dad is famous for wanting all white people dead. But because Bart points out that their school system teaches the ninos (which I understand is the Spanish term for children) about reconquista, this makes Bart the racist and bigot.
Yes, exactly.
Every time an American says "reconquista" that is an automatic admission that is sufficient, in itself, to identify that person as a racist, a bigot, a person filled with irrational prejudice and fear.
> One of my best friends is the daughter of the man who wants all gringos dead.
... and he hasn't killed you yet, Bart?
Must not be such a dangerous person.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 04:14 PMYou looking to get kicked there David?
So much for peace loving LIB's...
I am just seeking to verify the ominous claim.
If you are an American and your best Mexican friend is the daughter of a man who wants to kill all Americans ... well, I'd contemplate getting a new Best Mexican Friend.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 04:27 PMLet's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).
According to you liberals, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work be cause he too is hard-working and honest, except for that whole breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.
It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest, um,
except for well, you know.
And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being an anti-housebreaker!
Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me...
And when I give birth, I expect you to include my child in your legacy.
***
Dear Heart Bleeders, Knee Jerkers and Liberals, I believe the answer to this ILLEGAL problem is for all of YOU to each adopt a few of them.
62 million voters participated in the 200o presidential election. George W received 62% of that, which leaves 23,560,000 of YOU to adopt 12 little million ILLEGALS... Start a website and get busy signing up your fellow heart bleeders and knee jerklers. Surely, putting your money where your mouths are you want and can afford to be 100% TOTALLY responsible for 1/2 an ILLEGAL each!
We'll be waiting.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on May 2, 2007 04:29 PMWhat bart is talking about goes on at many UC colleges and in LA it self.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 04:32 PMWhat planet do you live on? Reconquista is a racist term? Says who? And based on what? It was invented and advanced by Mexicans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_%28Mexico%29
Kick his friend to the curb because the dad is a nutjob racist... that's a real open minded and liberal thing to do.
And I love how you started referring to her as his best Mexican friend. Not best friend, but best Mexican friend, like the fact she's Mexican must make her some sort of lower class friend to him.
What the hell is the matter with you? Jerk.
Posted by: Mike H on May 2, 2007 04:41 PM> What planet do you live on? Reconquista is a racist term? Says who? And based on what? It was invented and advanced by Mexicans.
There are a number of terms which are valid within their original context which have also become associated with racism, prejudice and bigotry when used in entirely different context.
Do the Mexicans want to reconquer the SouthWest?
Excellent. May they succeed.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 04:43 PMMust be hell that the only thing in your life is to piss off people on the web & spew.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 04:49 PM> First, Americans have the right to protect our environment against over-population.
Ha! Prejudice & bigotry are transforming conservatives into environmentalists!
Incidentally, B., the greatest threat to the Earth's environment are the obese, lazy, oil-addicted, consumer cattle ... the Americans.
Who will save the Earth from the American consumer cattle?
Posted by: David Mathews on May 2, 2007 04:52 PMHave you taken responsibility for your half of an ILLEGAL today, Dave??
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on May 2, 2007 04:53 PMThey are hardworking.
They deserve the American dream.
Now contrast to the feather bedders and coffeehouse urchins of Seattle, the bratty teen spawn of overfed Bellevue price gougers, or the corrupt lazy bureaucrats of government.
I think there are a lot of people who are draining "the system" dry -- at a far faster burn rate than "immigrants" -- who work hard, use little, and behave nicely.
I find that I have very little in common with many people in this country who are "American" simply by birth -- because they are not hard working, they do not play fair, and they take far more than they contribute.
Posted by: John Bailo on May 2, 2007 04:56 PMActually, 102 million people voted. Gore got 48.4% and Bush got 47.9% of the popular vote.
Posted by: Bruce on May 2, 2007 04:56 PMYou know we don't elect that way....
Talk about old and tired.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2007 05:03 PM
I got (and misread) my information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2004
I stand corrected for my error and am awaiting the apology you owe.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on May 2, 2007 05:04 PM
And John B.
What about people from say France, China, Japan, England, Germany heck even Iraq. You think they arn't hard working?
Were are talking about people who play by the rules and others who don't!
Army Medic- What's my point? To correct a mistake. Yes, I know that's not how we choose the president. But my pride for my country makes me want the world to know that Bush never got the overwhelming mandate that he claimed.
Posted by: Bruce on May 2, 2007 05:12 PMBut my pride for my country makes me want the world to know that Bush never got the overwhelming mandate that he claimed.
Ok and my pride for my country also knows that we have had two Prez (both Dems) who turned OUR White House into a sex den. I for one am not proud of that.. Most of all these men were married.
So much for telling your wife & god the truth.
)-:
The only reason he says this is because he lives next to Taco Bell and appreciates the cheap, fatty food.
Posted by: David Mathews Ego on May 2, 2007 05:58 PMIs this what you are talking about??
PS--
Ivan is the fatass on the Left.
Bruce, I'm sure that you would want to be as accurate as possible, so here are the numbers for 2000 and 2004.
2004
George W. Bush 62,040,610
John Kerry 59,028,439
2000
George W. Bush 50,460,110
Albert Gore 51,003,926
It is true that Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 - by about 544,000 votes. In 2004, Kerry lost the popular vote by a little over 3,000,000 votes.
Comparing the two elections, Gore barely beat Bush in the popular and it is common knowledge that way more people voted for Bush in 2004.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on May 2, 2007 06:03 PM1 Find a place for a meeting. Libraries or coffee shops are good.
2 Let your local news in on what you are trying to do. Patriots or Minutemen are good key words that will let others know what your group is about.
3 Hold a meeting. Get a small group of people elected to help keep things organized and your group functioning.
4 Visit your local city council or other public meetings and let them know how you feel.
Rallies are a good way to let people in your area know what your group is about. To keep your group going it can be helpful to have a flyer ready to let people know of your next meeting or rally.
The current crazy situation reminds me more and more of the latter days of ancient Imperial Rome, which even a cursory study of history tells us went willingly into oblivion (Aleric, the so-called ''barbarian'' who first sacked Rome in 410 AD, had been an Imperial general).
REGARDLESS of other decisions to be made, here are a few of the things we desperately need to do as quickly as possible:
[1] Amend the US Constitution to say that children born in the US automatically become citizens only if they are born to parents who are here LEGALLY. Granting the privilege of citizenship as a reward for breaking the law is absolutely NUTS.
[2] Build the double (or triple) fence along the southern border. For the relatively (in comparison) low cost of a few billion $ we can cut illegal immigration by 90+ percent. THEN we can discuss a rational LEGAL immigration policy.
[3] Institute serious penalties for employers who knowing hire illegal workers.
SIDEBAR: I slipped up and didn't skip all the way over every David Mathews post. This short one caught my eye:
> Do the Mexicans want to reconquer the SouthWest?
>
> Excellent. May they succeed.
It has been a while since I have seen a better definition of treason in print.
Posted by: Methow Ken on May 2, 2007 08:41 PMMy other thought is that illegal immigrant labor and/or the benefits of such, is not my responsibility to discover. Any more than a bank robbers cash is my responsibility. We have laws and people who are paid to uphold the laws. If the law would like me to hunt down and prosecute every offender, let me know. Otherwise, I expect my tax funded government to provide me and protect me from illegal activity. That includes intruders on my property.
Posted by: Elaine on May 2, 2007 09:09 PMIt is not a crime to be in this country illegally. Seriously, it's not. It is a crime to ENTER this country illegally (though only a misdemeanor), but of course, many enter the country legally and stay here, and you probably could not prove which have not.
You can be deported for being here illegally, but you cannot be charged with a crime merely for that.
This was the big change in immigration law posed by the House last year: it would no longer be a crime to merely ENTER illegally, but to BE HERE illegally (and it would be increased from a misdemeanor to a felony). This was proposed because proving illegal entry is so difficult.
So I wouldn't expect anyone to be arrested, since they have not committed crimes.
Incidentally -- not many people realize this fact -- Rep. Sensenbrenner tried to amend his own bill to REMOVE the part that made it illegal to be in this country illegally, on request of President Bush, who made the point that we do not have the resources to prosecute such offenses: so why go through all that bad PR to make a law we won't enforce?
But the Democrats (along with some Republicans, of course) prevented Sensenbrenner's amendment from passing. The reason why is obvious: they wanted to accuse the Republicans of wanting to make illegal immigrants into felons. But the fact is, that was in the final bill because the Democrats wanted it there.
> Mexico is doing everything it can to create a
MEXICAN NATION within the borders of the USA.
Excellent. I hope that Mexico succeeds. You do know that the American Southwest was illegal seized from Mexico by means of an illegal, immoral American war of aggression?
Thank you Dr. Demento.
I see you failed history too
Hahahaha! You crack me up, Matthews. If you weren't so far away I'd let you graze in my backyard for a while.
Posted by: Smoley on May 3, 2007 08:45 AMI am not astonished when I discover conservatives ignorant of history. Without such profound ignorance maybe conservatism would not be able to exist.
Here's the information for those who are willing to become educated:
And it should come as no surprise to anyone that the country which engaged in genocide against the Native Americans and slavery against the Africans would also commit an act of aggressive war against Mexico.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 3, 2007 09:02 AMNothing you posted -- nothing that actually happened -- backs up your assertion that the annexation of Texas, or any part of the American souhwest, was illegal.
Perhaps you should also look up the word "illegal" when you look up the word "fact." You see -- and I know this is a bit hard to understand -- for something to be illegal, it has to break a "law."
Hope that helps! You can now put your helmet back on and go out to sandbox to play with your trucks.
if you broke the law and decided to hide from the law like a fugitive AND bring your family into the fray, how is that MY problem? your free choice to drag your family into fugitive hiding status, not mine.
this is not about "reuniting families" and creating new "rights" or "dignity" for non-citizens. "dignified" people follow the law. it's about respecting a country's laws & sovereignty & taking your lumps for breaking the law solely BY YOUR OWN CHOICES.
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on May 3, 2007 10:33 AMThe Germans saw this face in the '30s and ignored the warning.
> The Germans saw this face in the '30s and ignored the warning.
This is exactly the reason why I must oppose these neocon neonazis who seek to engage in some sort of war with Mexico.
Look, people, there are millions of Americans of Mexican descent who are not going to let the Republican party treat the Mexican immigrants like the Nazis treated the Jews.
The Republican party better separate itself from its racists and xenophobes if it would like to win elections in the 21st century.
But if the Republican party wants to self-destruct on behalf of racism & prejudice: Suit yourself!
These racists are called Neocon Neonazis for a reason. What an angry, violent and potentially genocidal group of people. What they lack is the political power to accomplish their bloody goals.
What they will always lack is the political power to accomplish their goals. Lily-white racists are becoming a minority in America.
The Mexicans that I see in a daily basis are beautiful people. Only a fool would attack a Mexican.
Spanish is a beautiful language. I love to hear the sound of Spanish everywhere.
The 12- to 20-million Mexicans in America need to become citizens of this country and gain the right to vote. I am in favor of amnesty and a immediate citizenship. There is no reason why such a large number of people should remain powerless and unrepresented in American politics.
Until that happens, all Americans of Mexican descent and all non-racist Americans will have to defend the powerless from the racists. This is a struggle that the racists cannot help but lose.
Racists are an American minority. Thank God. In former times this was not the case.
Posted by: David Mathews on May 4, 2007 04:15 AMMr. Mathews, I suggest you actually inform yourself before opening your mouth. Ignorance will not solve this problem.
So visit this site, and then look at you next pay-stub and look at all the money you lost!
And here is another suggestion. If you hate America so bad, you are in lucky. We are not a fascist communist country, therefore WE HAVE NO LAWS ON OUR CITIZENS EMIGRATING!
Posted by: Miles Thompson on May 8, 2007 10:44 AM