September 05, 2007
Re: All Eyes Turn to Fred

Last night's post on Fred Thompson evoked a couple comments rejecting the notion that staff turnover stories for his campaign are bad. I disagree, strongly, and believe news today bears out the concern.

The issue is not the staff departures themselves or the negligible impact of related individual press stories, but rather what they say about Fred Thompson the manager and the competency of the organization he's putting together. Given the magnitude and complexity of the campaigns being run in this cycle, such performance at the head of each campaign is an instructive insight into the type of White House a candidate may well run.

Ramesh Ponnuru at the Corner summarizes the problem:

Disarray in Reagan's campaign in 1980 didn't hurt him because he had served two successful terms as governor of a big state. Indeed, the staff changes were evidence of his executive ability. But when you haven't run anything before and you can't seem to run your campaign, either, it begins to raise the question of whether you should be president.

The point isn't simply that staff is leaving. It's that the staff is leaving in a steady drip-drip fashion over time, exuding an aura of instability and indecisiveness that is not becoming of a major Presidential candidate. The problem growing more acute with the latest departure, reported at the Fox Update '08 blog that annoyingly does not provide a permalink for the blog post in question so their "Fred's Follies" post dated 9/5 is no longer online. Here's some relevant text from the original:

The original Fredheads are no longer angry or frustrated; most have been fired already or given up. The remaining originals say they will quit, "as soon as the check clears to Jim Mills' account."

Mills, a long-time Capitol Hill producer for FOX News, was told he was being let go on Friday. A little over a month earlier, Mills was personally recruited and hired as spokesman by Fred and Jeri Thompson at their dinner table.

...

There are more major resignations of founding Fredheads now looming over the way the "new media strategy" was supplanted by a "corporate" and "predictable" aproach [sic]. They are also protesting the way so many people have been treated by the candidate and spouse.

As one insider said of Mills' departure, "he was recruited and hired by the candidate and his wife and they did not have the guts to let him go themselves. They have wrecked his life and it's totally wrong."

Mills has become the biggest victim, but there are literally a dozen people who also left successful careers in Washington and elsewhere who now find themselves out of work -- and many are suspicious that they were misled.

Alienating your original, core staff in the span of months is not a good sign. There are serious rumors even another departure is imminent. The callousness of hiring someone away from a stable job for a campaign position then forcing them out shortly thereafter is appalling.

Such posts mean accepting a position you know will underpay you for the work you perform while demanding grueling hours. It's jarring to see so many senior staffers make that commitment (for what they no doubt expected to be a long campaign) only to exit shortly thereafter. You take those jobs because you have a serious passion for a cause that compels you. Thus, it's shocking to see so many staffers who have so quickly turned around and exited the building.

Just ask Mike Seely about passion. His famous musings on working for Senator Cantwell reveal a crew whose motivating fire turned out to be desperately wanting Slade Gorton out of office. For my own part, I would have damn near charged a machine-gun nest for Slade when I was on his staff. Not a few colleagues (and Gorton staff alumni) would likewise go to the mat for that lovable, brilliant dork of a Senator and boss. In contrast, one gets the impression that on Team Thompson someone is going to pull a Milton from Office Space and set Thompson HQ on fire on the way out the door some day.

Campaigns with these sorts of gratuitous management and staff problems make mistakes. Lots of them. Even good campaigns - and candidates - screw up once in a while. Does anyone think Republicans can mount anything short of a highly effective campaign and hope to win against Hillary, Inc.?

To prove the point, Thompson's press has been dreadful today on the cusp of his announcement and initial swing. Rush Limbaugh is questioning the Leno over the NH debate decision. Fox's Carl Cameron had yet another negative story on Thompson. The Washington Times hit him pretty hard on immigration. Marc Ambinder even found the Thompson camp's rebuttal to that story didn't hold much water. Plus, an influential group of social conservatives thought to be leaning toward Thompson is now holding back with concerns (see here and here).

It all had the so-far-uncommitted Mary Katharine Ham questioning the Thompson campaign mightily in a post titled "Wrong Said Fred?" This even before Thompson was set upon in New Hampshire with the state GOP taking a direct shot to start the debate and the candidates teeing off on him too, though mostly with a mix of jest and respectfulness, in response to the first question out of the gate.

One day of wretched press aside, both Jonathan Martin and Jim Geraghty picked up on the fact the totality of the news, including potential follow-ups, around Jim Mills's departure are not a good thing for Fred Thompson. That's a story that may have legs for sometime if people talk, which it sounds like they may.

All that being said, the focus for now will be on Thompson's performance on the trail. His team still has reasonably high hopes. And others like former White House hand Peter Wehner note Thompson has a great opportunity to impact and move the race. True. Speaking of which, Thompson's official campaign website with his announcement video is now live and the ad trying to drive people to it is also running:

That's all well and good. It will be immensely interesting to see how Thompson does on the trail, what he says, and how he does or does not move the GOP debate. Regardless of that, however, the carnage of his staff turnover is not a pleasant site and a highly uncomfortable vision into the workings of his potential White House staff. Thompson the conservative commentator people like, deservedly. Thompson the potential President and Chief Executive may not wear so well.

Posted by Eric Earling at September 05, 2007 11:32 PM | Email This
Comments
1. "Were goin to def con 5"
Fred Farts dust.
He won't get any consideration from me.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 5, 2007 11:10 PM
2. The reality is Thompson is going to steamroll the other candidates in fairly short order. He is keeping himself above the fray and creating separation from the others.

Posted by: Don on September 5, 2007 11:11 PM
3. "Were goin to Fred Con 5"
A whole new blend of Neo Con.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 5, 2007 11:13 PM
4. He is waiting in the make up trailer trying to be a teflon pan.
Ron Paul is the only one to admit the party was wrong.
Fred is going to pander to the party,Win the bible belt or deep south and lose because he wont admit the R's were wrong on Iraq.
Not even Toby Keith can save him.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 5, 2007 11:25 PM
5. Fred is going to tell us that we need to keep catering democracy because the Iranians are going to get the A-bomb.
Fred's Catering democracy service won't get the Majority here or in the Country.
Fred is A spend and spender that is a neo Con,and is not a fiscal conservative.
He won't get my vote.
I would rather vote for Hollywood Hulk Hogan if I wanted to go Hollywood.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 5, 2007 11:32 PM
6. I'll ask Mike the next time I talk to him.

With that said, Cantwell has won two elections despite what her staff thinks of her and despite being what appears to be a general all around beeyotch to work for.

So using your example it looks like staffing problems, which per my posts and comments that you're referring to, amount to very, very little.
Candidates win or lose based on the amount of enthusiasm they generate with voters. Not with how well they fundraise or whether they leave smiley faces on staff memos.

Posted by: Don Ward on September 6, 2007 02:48 AM
7. The fact of the matter is that Eric is wrong. Does he not remember Ronald Reagan's many movements within his base of operations?

The problem with the people who were in his organization at the early set is that they were only able to get him so far, then they had to go. This is what is known as natural. And anyone who says otherwise needs to put a hole in their head with a Browning .50 cal.

Posted by: Sakaki on September 6, 2007 04:14 AM
8. Eric,
The fact that Fred is willing to drop people who don't perform is a credit to him.

Posted by: pbj on September 6, 2007 06:31 AM
9. Well, Mr Fred let's see what you can do. Watching last night's Republican debate, it was obvious that none of those candidates have a 'real' plan for Iraq; may be YOU do? It seems to me we'll be in Iraq with a sizeable force for many moons to come. Yes we'll probably make token withdrawals of troops but no doubt we'll maintain the most fortified 'embassy' anywhere in the world.
I'll be anxious to see your thoughts on this and I will also be 'very anxious' to see how you handle questions on this and other substantial issues. I'll reserve judgement on you for now and will say at this point your strongest opponent within the party appears to be Romney.
Such futile efforts; all for the privlege of losing to Mrs Clinton. Good Luck!

Posted by: Duffman on September 6, 2007 07:01 AM
10. remind, me, what fred thompson has accomplished in public life that qualifies him to be president?

Posted by: dinesh on September 6, 2007 08:07 AM
11.
So far Thompson's whole campaign really exposes a weakness in the core competency any President would be expected to have: decisiveness.

Posted by: John Bailo on September 6, 2007 08:14 AM
12. dinesh, you can also ask that question of the Ds. But, other than Giuliani and Romney, what has any of the candidates done to deserve the presidency?

I like what some of the others say, as does dinesh with Clinton and Obama, but in real life, what has any done?

One of the biggest concerns I have for the Rs is that they haven't put all their conservative eggs in the Thompson basket. If they have and he disappoints, it will be devastating. I am taking the position of wait-and-see. It would be marvelous if he took off, in my opinion, but I am personally not putting all my eggs in his basket.

Posted by: swatter on September 6, 2007 08:22 AM
13. Fred Thompson has accomplished at least as much as anyone else running on either side of the aisle, if not more.

Even better, he's not a complete liar like Hillary or Edwards, and not a screaming socialist like Obama.

But then, I'm voting for Ron Paul....

Posted by: John Galt on September 6, 2007 08:30 AM
14. I'm still for Fred. Saw Ron Paul in the debate last night. Why hasn't anyone suggested sanity or competency hearings for him?

Posted by: John425 on September 6, 2007 08:40 AM
15. #14: Spot On!

Posted by: Duffman on September 6, 2007 08:41 AM
16. Mr Paul reminds me of the 'who am I, why am I here' VP candidacy of James Stockdale.

Posted by: Duffman on September 6, 2007 09:01 AM
17. Blinders off for a second John Galt. Be more specific on the Thompson credentials.

Giuliani- prosecutor and mayor of large metro city and decreased crime on his watch- city of 5 million.

Romney- saved the Olympics and very successful businessman.

Thompson or any of the others don't have anything close to this- this includes the biggest lie in history that is Hillary Clinton.

Posted by: swatter on September 6, 2007 09:25 AM
18. Paul has a chance to win Washington State.
None of the others do.
Why take the same old song and dance into the next election.
I could end up with Ron Sims moving America into high rises Downtown,while the roads continue to kill Americans.
Fred or any other R can't win with that scare the people crap.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 09:33 AM
19. Publicbulldog: tell me, who would vote for Ron Paul other than Libertarians (either big, or little, l)? Name anyone. Not the non-libertarian Republicans, which is the majority. Not non-libertatian independents. Not ANY Democrats.

He wants to abolish the majority of the federal government. No one on the left or middle would vote for him, period.

Stop pretending. It only makes you look stupid.

Posted by: pudge on September 6, 2007 09:42 AM
20. Pudge,

33 percent of the TV poll!
The other pro war candidates do not appeal to americans right now,the last election proved that.
The R's are going to be like Ricky Nelson showing up at madison square's garden party.
You Need to remove the blinders from your eyes and the bucket strapped around your chin.

The pro war platform will go down this time.
All the Toby Keith songs in the world wont stand a chance .
Face it pudge, Hillary is going to run on the GW platform and tell America we need to save a whale salmon and frog .
The R's are going to trot out Derf Con 5 and the corporate gouge and get slaughtered.
Hillary is Going to be the next President.
We might as well start heading for our High Rises Downtown and prepare for the life of as GW lemmings.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 09:55 AM
21. If you think that Fred has no qualifications compared to rest of the pack running, please read this as a starter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Thompson

Posted by: John Galt on September 6, 2007 10:06 AM
22. Interesting JG, I was not aware of all of that. Couple that with his beautiful wife and he definitely has an attraction.

Posted by: Duffman on September 6, 2007 10:14 AM
23. Publicbulldog: You. Are. Delusional.

First, that "TV poll" was not remotely scientific. I ignore it because it has no actual validity. It was a text messaging vote. It was a self-selected sample. It has no more validity than a web poll.

Second, in an ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC poll of NH voters after the 1996 debate, do you know who won? Alan Keyes. Yet he only won 3 percent of the actual vote in that state. Which is about where Paul is in the actual polls today. Sound familiar?


It is not about me having blinders. You are the one who thinks people will vote only based on the war. They will not. Even if the Dem candidates had drastically different positions from Paul on the war -- which they do not, so why would people vote for him over the Democrat? -- they would not vote for Paul because of all of his other views.

This country does not vote, and never has voted, on single issues. Not for President, not ever. And Paul won't be the one to change that.

And the Republicans will have a much better chance with ANYONE BUT Ron Paul, who disagrees with a huge majority of Republicans on foreign policy, and disagrees with a huge majority of the rest of the country on everything else.

Paul is, by far, the worst potential general election candidate for the Republicans.

Posted by: pudge on September 6, 2007 10:14 AM
24. Eric,

We get it already. You don't care for Fred Thompson and you support somebody else.

Give it a rest.

Posted by: jimg on September 6, 2007 10:17 AM
25. John Galt, I agree he has the same credentials as the rest of the R and D pack, but don't you 'honestly' think Giuliani and Romney have the better real resume to run a country? And we're talking resume here, not whether one or the other is going to be nominated. Just resume.

Posted by: swatter on September 6, 2007 10:41 AM
26. Pudge,
Paul threw out the R's playbook and won the Debate because of it.
So the last elction was lost by the R's because of their position on all of the issues then.
All the more reason to throw out the neo cons playbook.
The Neo Cons derf Con 5 and the corporate gouge platform WILL NOT WIN ANYMORE PERIOD Pudge.
Come to grips fella.
Hillary will win because the R's won't let go of the Catering democracy platform.
Will you be moving into the Low income High rise,the Shag Highrise or Lovie and Thurstons high rise.
You might as well send for a brochure.
Hillary's Global Warming platform is coming.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 10:45 AM
27. Ron Paul doesn't have a chance because he comes across, or at least did last night during the debate and in subsequent interviews, as hysterical, extremely isolationist, and deranged. He has about as much chance as that little fella from Texas with the big ears, Ross Perot [sp].

Posted by: katomar on September 6, 2007 10:59 AM
28. I saw the Fred video on line last night. Nice intro. He is smart to wait and get the floor to himself rather than fight for it with Rudy, John, and Mitt.

I wonder if the people who quit did so because they did not know if he was going to run and wanted more of a sure thing.

Posted by: Carl on September 6, 2007 11:32 AM
29. Ron Paul: No more CIA, FBI, Drug war, Iraq war. Also- Repeal the Law of Gravity and dammit- the Earth IS flat 'cuz he says so!!!!!

Posted by: John425 on September 6, 2007 12:23 PM
30. Publicbulldog:

Please, stop being completely irrational. Please.

You were arguing for why Paul has a chance, while none of the others do. When I criticized your claim that Paul has a chance, you went and tried to show the rest have no chance.

Aside from the fact that you did nothing to show the rest have no chance -- which I will get to in a moment -- you did not even attempt to show Paul has a chance. Let's assume you're right, that "The Neo Cons derf Con 5 and the corporate gouge platform WILL NOT WIN ANYMORE PERIOD." I don't even know what most of that means, but let's assume it is right, whatever it means.

It doesn't show that Paul has a BETTER chance. He doesn't. Paul would get a MINORITY of conservative/Republican voters, and NONE of the rest of the voters. Most of the rest of the field would get at least half the conservative/Republicans, and probably get over 40 percent. Paul won't even get that.

As to saying the rest have no chance, that their platform, whatever you think it is, "WILL NOT WIN ANYMORE PERIOD," you provided not a single shred of evidence to back up that claim. You tried, of course. You said, "So the last elction was lost by the R's because of their position on all of the issues then." Except that this is a complete misrepresentation of the 2006 election, which was lost because of three things: the war in Iraq, the perception of misdeeds by the GOP, and the GOP not living up to its platform, which caused many conservative and Republican voters to stay home, or vote Democrat, in protest.

Only "the war in Iraq" supports your claim that the people have any problem with the GOP platform, and since even antiwar Democrat Brian Baird is right now supporting the current GOP platform on Iraq, it's impossible to say what views the electorate will have on Iraq a year from now. The rest of why the GOP lost in 2006 either has nothing to do with the platform, or was because the GOP did not follow its own platform.

So: wanna try again?

Posted by: pudge on September 6, 2007 02:01 PM
31. Pudge,
How about a little wager.
The R's trot out the Derf(Fred spelled backwards) Con 5 (Catering democracy)and the corporate gouge(line up at the gas pump for 4 bucks a gallon/make Haliburton a bundle)
Hillary runs another they about them'd us to death/Global warming/new direction production,and wins by a wide margin.
Want to put money on it.
I will concede that Paul may not come of as Uncle Ronnie that will give everyone a nickel,but he has the better grasp of the issues.
If I were still running a small business today,I would want less government.
Paul gets it.
We can ask for less and get more.
The neo Cons are more strict than the nanny State's they want a nanny world.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 02:30 PM
32. Pudge.
Ron Paul has the best chace to unite the fiscal conservatives.
We cant be fiscally conservative telling the world what to do.
Shall I order you a brochure for your downtown high rise condo.
Secretary of Gentrification Ron Sims will mail one right out to you.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 02:37 PM
33. Publicbulldog: I don't wager with people I don't know. But your wager, AGAIN, has nothing to do with your main point, which is that Paul has a BETTER chance than the rest. Even if they lose "by a wide margin," which is very unlikely -- heck, Kerry didn't lose by a wide margin, and he was terrible -- that doesn't do anything to show Paul would have done better.

So: try again? Try to actually show Paul would be better than the rest. Anything at all to back that up?

And no, Ron Paul cannot unite conservatives. He offends too many people with his various views. He does not work well with others, and that's important, as we saw with Bush, who sometimes also doesn't work well with others.

The best chance of uniting belongs to Romney, quite clearly. He is socially conservative enough to offend very few, yet also won't offend those who are more socially liberal, and he has a very strong fiscal conservative background.

McCain has by far the best chance of actually having a fiscally conservative administration, but, of course, he is a very divisive figure. But if you care most about fiscal conservatism, Paul is nowhere close to McCain, because even though Paul would cut a lot more if he could get away with it ... he wouldn't be able to get away with it. McCain could actually work with Congress to push his agenda, and Paul couldn't. McCain has the best record in our lifetime, bar none, for fighting against pork and for lowering spending, and his ability to work with the Senate makes him the clear choice if that's your main issue.

It's funny/sad to me that the clearly best candidate on the two main issues to Republicans -- the economy, and foreign policy -- who is also very conservative on most social issues, is hated by so many Republicans. But he really screwed up with that comprehensive immigration reform, not to mention stem cells, global warming, campaign finance reform, and a few others.

All that said, right now my favorite candidate is Fred. I like them all, including Paul, but he's the best of the bunch. Although Huckabee is tiring on me ... his snipey little digs at the other candidates are getting very old, and that combined with his "big-government conservatism" really turn me off. Too bad, because he's a likable fellow and good candidate otherwise.

Posted by: pudge on September 6, 2007 04:23 PM
34.
Pudge,
I do not think so much of Paul as a man, but I do believe in most of his positions.. to a point
The Fiscal conservatives have to be brought in this time..some how.
The usual line up won't cut it.
People are going to flock to the polls to stop the war.
The R's have to realize that.
Derf Is a pro war guy.
There is nothing fiscally conservative about trillions of war dollars being used to cater democracy,and pretend we can stop Iran from getting an A-bomb thru third party invasions.
Eventually the pro war R's want to invade Iran.
People fear that more than they fear Iran.
Meanwhile.
I am afraid of Secretary Of Gentrification Ron Sims.
I need the R's to win this thing or he is going to spread like cancer all the way across the Nation.
They won't win it with a pro war platform.
Uniting fiscal conservatives is key,even at the expense of the pro war votes.
I just don't think there are enough of pro war votes out there this time.
I fear the worst....Hillary..with Inslee and Sims!

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 04:58 PM
35. Fred looks like another religious fanatic.
How is he going to keep his promises.
You have got to be kidding me.
Another spend and spender from the far right.
I don't want an old man like that making decisions for my Kids.
I will actively campaign against him.
He has no chance to get my vote.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 07:39 PM
36. Hold the phone,
Fred's position on States rights may get me to consider him after all. .

Linda douglass writes.

At the heart of Thompson's views is his belief in federalism and his conviction that most decisions should be left to the states. He told FOX News' "Hannity and Colmes" in May, "I believe, generally speaking, that the federal government ought to concentrate on the enumerated powers" -- that is, powers laid out in the Constitution such as imposing taxes, printing money and providing for national defense. In the Senate, he voted consistently to limit the federal government's reach.

Interesting....
I may have to reconsider...
He is taking a position that I like.
I will have to see how many more issues we can agree on,But I am going to have to reconsider hiim.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 6, 2007 08:19 PM
37. This is great news! The republican party was short on pro war, pro Patriot act candidates. That is what America is really looking for!

Travis

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 6, 2007 08:22 PM
38. Publicbulldog:

What makes you think fiscal conservatives are not "brought in" to the party? I've seen no evidence of that. Social moderates and social conservatives stayed away a lot more than fiscal conservatives in 2006.

And no, people will not flock to stop the war. More delusion. If that were true, why did the Democrats fail in 2004, and succeed in 2006 only by going after "corruption" issues?

I still don't know what "Derf" is. It does not matter how many times you explain it, I'll never get it: so anything you say that uses that term won't be responded to.

As to Fred, however: more delusion. How is he in any way a "fanatic"? Do you know anything about that word, or anything about religion? And what in the world makes you think he is a "spend and spender"? Have you listened to ANYTHING he has said?

It's like you say things for the sake of saying them, without any actual reason. You then backtracked, but ... he has been a staunch federalist forever. Where have you been, that you make such broad attacks on Fred, attacking without knowing this basic thing about him, that is so important to you?

As to "Iran," the funny/tragic thing is that the anti-war people are doing exactly what they accuse the pro-war people of doing: using fear of the unknown to score political points. Yawn.

Travis: tell me one thing about the Patriot Act you dislike. Lots of people complain about it, but it is rare I find someone who can give specifics. Can you?

Posted by: pudge on September 7, 2007 08:49 AM
39. Pudge,
His sound bites do not explain his position,I had to do more research.
I still do not agree that we can afford to keep boots on the ground to stop radical islamic factions,and address things here at home..I think that is a stretch.
I will research and compare positions,and monitor his changes in position.
For instance I doubt that the religious right will allow States rights,the neo cons have to tell everyone what to do..don't see them letting States rights happen..
As far as the patriot act,It is one more attack on checks and balance and really just another power grab,and a vital part of the nanny world order..
Our forefathers thought long and hard about how to set our Government up,AND IT WAS SET UP TO AVOID POWER GRABS BY ONE NUT BALL..
Our Privacy was voted away with ease much in the same manor that the feds took criminal subject matter jurisdiction from the States.
Again not the intention of our original framers.
We have failed to monitor and stop such power grabs.
Some people And I think you may be one of them,Don't mind a presidential power grab.
Neo cons want the sole power to tell America which side of the bed to wake up on,ad they were tired of electing someone that could not dictate to Congress,and other Americans.
Do not fool yourelf Pudge that is what it is all about.
If the president appoints his own judges,then the only thing that is needed to get a dictatorship is to take out congress.
Once you render Congress useless you have a dictator.
I give you Bushius...
Back to Derf,
I am afraid that Derf is going to flip flop,and be caught doing it.
In fact he already has on abortion.
I will wait and see what the solid positions on candidates are in 2008.
One thing is for sure Pudge I don't wan't to live in a high rise downtown.
Fresh air>town sqaure

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 7, 2007 11:20 AM
40. Face it pudge,
The neo cons do not want to work within a checks and balance system.
There has to be some reason why we must allow the checks and balances to be taken away so they can achieve their agenda without any opposition.
The neo cons,and others,if we let them, will do what they can to erode the basic principals our Government was founded on.
We just have to have boots on the ground to make money off of some urgent fear.
Patton would love to be alive today.
He was all worried about wonder weapons doing all the fighting.
We were supposed to settle our problems with missles.
The problem is missles only make a couple of corporations money.
Boots on the ground make mass money for a multitude of corporations.
We could have invaded got out and gotten compliance with a strategic steady barrage of missles (Steel rain),but we need to have a steady supply of boots on the ground to make more money out of the war.
We need to sell guns bullets,and boots.
We cant build new roads to stimulate the economy,we need to keep on selling guns bullets and boots.
The war machine is up and running again.
Outside its America.
100,200,300.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 7, 2007 12:28 PM
41. Publicbulldog:

So you admit you were drawing broad conclusions about Fred based on no real information. And you're wrong about the soundbites anyway; he has talked a lot about federalism in his soundbites. You were just completely ignorant and spouting off about it as though you knew something.

As to the Patriot Act, I asked for specifics. You provided not a single one! Not one claim about one part of the Act being wrong. Why bother mentioning it at all, if you can't provide what I asked for? You make handwaving gestures at power grabs and dictatorships that do not exist in the real world.

You're also wrong about "the neocons" not wanting checks and balances. And I don't know who you are referring to anyway, because though I know of some neocons in Congress, I know of none in the executive branch, which you appear to be talking about. They are all long gone. Cheney and Bush aren't neocons, by any stretch of the imagination. Neither was Rumsfeld. Cheney and Rummy are classic conservatives, and Bush is like his dad, sortof a Rockefeller conservative. Wolfowitz was neoconservative. He was the most prominent person I know of in the Bush administration who was.

Anyway, the few neocons who were around had no problem with checks and balances. Even if you include Cheney and Rummy: Rummy was nothing but entirely forthcoming and available with the Congress, and Cheney has never failed to follow oversight law. Yes, really. That includes the Energy Task Force and the more recent flap regarding the National Archives (in which there is a myth going around that Cheney or his office claimed he was not in the executive branch: that never happened).

The Task Force case is regarding a law passed by Congress in the 70s, that explicitly exempts such committees that are made up entirely of government officials, which the Energy Task Force was. Industry and activist people had one or two meetings with the Task Force, but were not members, had no votes, did not come to regular meetings, and did not otherwise act as de facto members. Therefore the Task Force was exempt, and Cheney followed the law.

The National Archives thing is even stupider: Bush said the Executive Order that required turning over documents to the National Archives exempted Cheney, so *therefore it does.* There was no law here, just an executive order which has no force of law. And if Bush says his orders do not apply to Cheney, that supercedes everything else, because that exemption is, too, an executive order: less formal, but just as much meaning and force.

So please, no whining about "checks and balances," because proper checks and balances do not exist outside of the law. If you can't point to specific laws being violated, then your complaints are invalid.

Also, I have no idea who this "Derf" person is you keep referring to. No one named "Derf" is running for President.

Posted by: pudge on September 7, 2007 02:02 PM
42. Pudge,
I was refering to the Radical islam diatribe on his sound bites.
Derf,like most neo cons, would try and Start a war between Quisp and Quake just to get some boots on the ground somewhere.
Derf said one thing about abortion,then said another.

Derf Will change positions again between now and 2008.
I suspect Derf will pander to the far right .
He looks good with a pitchfork,he can play the part..
"I know of none in the executive branch"
C'mon Pudge Rove was a died in the wool NEO CON.
Bushius want's to have full control of our government.
You are drinking too much neo conservative Kool aide pudge.
You came on these threads and write long drawn out spews of delusional diatribe in defense of neo cons.
You have a knee jerk,mostly Jerk, reaction to all comments neo con.
You are trying to say that Neo cons don't want full control,and then you say there are no neo cons there at all.
Horse Hockey Pudge.
I thought you here by gave up on me threads ago.
You just cant resist standing up for those neo con dorks.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 7, 2007 02:46 PM
43. Spend and spenders want to be world nannies,and try and take care of domesitic problems.
Don't see it happening without more spend and spenders racking up debt..
The just can't shut down the war machine.
I don't see any other way to do both unless you are planning another spend and spend for 4 more years.
D's want to move everyone into high rises and save a whale salmon and frog(and save money to provide services)
We are headed for a cop out social engineering,services push because the Country isnt going to buy in to another war regime administration.
It is nice to have a president that can do his own acting,but I need someone who can do their own thinking.
Derf is going to be caught flip flopping on issues so many times it will be hard to keep track.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 7, 2007 02:59 PM
44. Public Bull Dog,

For starters, I do not like the PATRIOT act because not one congressman or senator read it before voting in favor of it. Secondly it is unconstitutional, it transfers powers to the executive branch that it is not specically authorized in the constitution.

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 7, 2007 10:16 PM
45. Spend and spenders want to be world nannies,and try and take care of domesitic problems.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

It is nice to have a president that can do his own acting,but I need someone who can do their own thinking.

I assume you are talking about Fred, the only actor in the field. No one who knows anything about Fred Thompson thinks he doesn't "do his own thinking." Try again.

Derf is going to be caught flip flopping on issues so many times it will be hard to keep track.

Sorry, I have no idea who this "Derf" person is you keep referring to.

Posted by: pudge on September 7, 2007 11:54 PM
46. Travis Pahl:

First, I asked, not Publicbulldog.

Second, your first criticism has nothing to do with the bill itself. While is a valid criticism of Congress and the legislative process, it is entirely beside the point of my question.

Third, your actual answer is almost nonresponsive. HOW is it unconstitutional? WHAT power does it transfer to the executive that is unconstitutional? Be specific. I cannot begin to care about inspecific criticisms. Don't bother saying "it's obvious" or "if you don't know that's your problem." You made the assertion that the Patriot Act is bad: please back it up.

Posted by: pudge on September 7, 2007 11:58 PM
47. Pudge,
In hockey when a goalie has to defend a lot of shots,they call it standing on his head. As the goalie for the neo-cons you are standing on your head on this thread.

The neo con era is over.

Derf will not win.
Derf will be caught flip flopping for the benifit of the far right.

Derf wants boots on the ground anywhere where there is radical islamic guy on a video ..or DVD... OR VHS..OR BETA... Quisp and Quake ARE FIGHTING ! lets get boots on the ground.
Derf is just dying to say Were going to derf con 5.
Derf wants to cater democracy.
Def wants to Bullet the blue sky...and fix social security....LOL.
Derf wants to spend and spend and spend and spend,and give tax cuts to ...the rich...so the poor can pay for America to spend and spend and spend and spend and spend.
What does he care he is gonna die before the bills he rings up gets paid.
Mommy I am scared there is an old man with a pitchfork under the bed.
Mommy He says His name is Derf,and
He keeps saying we are going to Derf con 5.
Mommy what is a radical islamic.
Mommy what does a damn towel head mean.
Mommy are we having soylent green for dinner again tommorrow.
Mommy I think Derf needs a new diaper.
Mommy am I too young to be drafted by Derf.
Mommy can we go for a ride on the bridge again that was fun.
Mommy why is my school so high up in that building.
Mommy ..mommy...mommy I am Scared Mommy.
MOMMY!
Its OK son I voted for a neo con.
The world will be safe, there is no old man with a pitchfork named Derf under your bed,be a good little boy and go to sleep...if you go to sleep like a good little boy I will take you for another bus ride on another bridge tommorrow.
I will meet you in the lobby after you get off the elevator from school,so go to bed.
OK mommy Good Night.
Good night Derf.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 8, 2007 03:05 AM
48. Publicbulldog:

Regarding "neocon": You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Also, I played hockey. I am from Massachusetts. I know hockey. And the only call it "standing on your head" when the shots are HARD to defend. So no, I have not been standing on my head.

I have no idea why you think this "Derf" person is running for President or why I should care, so I am ignoring the rest of your post, since none of it has anything to do with anything. Just insane rambling, I guess.

Posted by: pudge on September 8, 2007 07:42 AM
49. Pud,
When Hillary gets elected and Secretary of Gentrificaton Ron Sims starts using his nation wide carrot and stick campaign to move everyone into High Risees Downtown,you should be the first to move in,since you were to stubborn to vote for the right platform.
Face it Pud, Hillary is going to beat any pro war platform no matter how or who tries to run on it.
The R's are done nationally Pud.
The highrise brochure is in the mail.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 8, 2007 10:57 AM
50. Publicbulldog:

Why is it that you NEVER even ATTEMPTED to back up your main point, that Ron Paul would do better than any of the other Republicans?

You didn't even TRY to back it up. Instead you said the others don't have a chance. Fine, but that doesn't mean Paul has a BETTER chance.

Why did you not even TRY to back it up?

Posted by: pudge on September 8, 2007 11:15 AM
51. Pud,
You want me to back up an election that has not even happened yet with data from some poll a year from an election..
Nobody has the proof you seek bud.
We are not playing pokeman cards,we are talking about forcasting an election..
My gut instinct tells my that Ron Paul has a better grasp of most of the issues.
That is my forcast.
However, you may be right in that he may want to cut too much Gubmint.
I don't know if I can agree with Ron Paul on every issue.
But as it stands now I give him the lead for MY vote.
We are talking about my vote here,not any polls or phone surveys,or pokeman cards..
You cant possibly give any merit to any of those a year from an election.
What are you going to do point to some scientific poll a year from an election and back up your point.
It is my belief that Ron Paul Has a better chance than a pro war candidate right now.
Keep in mind I am on social security so his position on the issue does not thrill me in the least.
Thompson is a boots on the ground guy...
I dont want boots on the ground for another 4 years.
I have bridges my grandfather built falling on people.
I need some domestic spending in a major way.
The D's will just cop out on that job and move everyone into high rises like lemmings.
If my concerns are going to be met,They will be met be a someone that does not have a pro war platform.
Both parties are neglecting my transportation infrastructure.
I don't see any candidate promoting my transportation issues at all.
I am calling for investments on the original corridors.
I just know I won't get them.
I am extremely disapointed in my lack of choices on candidates that have the right idea on transportation.
Keep in mind I shifted my left leg to death in ramp metering- social engineering -carrot and stick BS ,that was designed to frustrate me into an urban village. while I was stuck in that social engineering coercion, I had a truck payment,and bills to pay.
I will always have a certain view of transportation issues after running on that hamster wheel.
We need investments on the original corridors so more local traffic uses them,and gets off the interstates.
We cant just invest in boondoggles for urban villages,and coerce traffic into submitting into them,while commercial traffic is trying to do business..
Now tell me pudge who out there knows what they need to do and how they need to go doing it when it comes to transportation.
We have two choices Build a double decker with extra cheese on the interstates or force everyone into urban villages.
That is madness.
They need to get in a truck and deliver for a while.
Let them run on the hamster wheel and see what it's like.
Only then will They will get an education on transportation.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 8, 2007 12:08 PM
52. I didn't ask for proof. I asked for an argument. Some reason to think Ron Paul has a better chance. You offered only one, the war, but that reason was dismissed, because he will share the same basic position on the war as the Democratic nominee.

Saying you think he has a better grasp of the issues is irrelevant, since the people with the best grasp of the issues usually do NOT win the nomination or the presidency. Clinton and Gore and Kerry and Bush were all clearly outshined in "grasp" of the issues by, respectively, Dole and Bradley and Biden and McCain.

And of course, who YOU like th ebest has nothing at all to do with who will have the best chance.

I am not asking for proof, just argument, just reason. And all you've offered is the war (which won't give him any advantage), the "issues" (which don't make a candidate), and "I like him better" (which is irrelevant).

Shrug.

Posted by: pudge on September 8, 2007 02:39 PM
53. Pudge,
Ron Paul will ask for less and get more.
His small gubmint platform is more appealing to me despite the fact that his list may go too far,and may effect me personally..
Derf wants to put boots on the ground.
In fact he is laying ground work to chase Radical islamic factions all over the world as he put it.
Derf is going to play musical son of a bitch,and end up trying domestic cop outs with what is left.
I don't want to tin cup domestic policies in favor of playing musical radical muslim son of a bitch.
I dont want to take a ride on one of my grandfathers bridges.
If I wanted to go on rides I will go to an amusement park.
As far as I can see I am looking at mainstream candidates from both sides running on cop out platforms.
Paul Is the only one I feel that will address domestic concerns that matter,at least he will have more money to work with,that will allow us to do it in stride,so I won't have to pay 10 bucks for a cornish game hen or 4 bucks a gallon for gas to chase radical muslims or move everyone into high rises.
That is my view.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 8, 2007 04:05 PM
54. Pudge
Mary Matlin says she admires Ron Paul and that the R's should not riducule or be so quick to dismiss him from consideration.
(Quotes from Beck).

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 8, 2007 04:13 PM
55. Pudge Here is a quote from Donklephant.

The campaign, however, insists the support is real. The day after the first Republican debate on May 3, the campaign Website had 706,000 visitors and, according to Benton, Paul has the most successful YouTube channel of any candidate. He is also the most requested Republican on Eventful.com, a site where users request candidates visit their city. Even more striking, Benton says since that May 3 debate, the number of donors to the campaign has increased fourfold.

"I wouldn't call it a grassroots effort, I'd call it a grassfire effort. It's growing by leaps and bounds," said Benton. "We couldn't even manage it if we tried."

Web sites popping up in support of Paul encourage users to network through sites like MySpace, to vote in online polls, to donate money and to join local Paul 2008 groups.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 8, 2007 04:23 PM
56. Pudge,

First, you admit that it is a very bad thing that our politicians did not read the bill, but then dismiss this as some seperate problem with the system. It is not a problem with the system, it is a problem with the politicians being elected. Ron Paul and a few politicians like him will out of principle not vote for legislation like the Patriot act if not given a chance to read it. Vote for people like him and the system will change. Dismiss it as a system problem and you will get more of the same.

I did imply that the patriot act was bad yes. I feel any law that has to pass through congress without any members reading it as a knee jerk reaction to a terrorist act is bound to be bad. The patriot act did not disappoint. Many parts have already been challenged and found unconstitutional.

But it sounds like you need more specifics. How about taking a look at this page, It contrasts the bill of rights with the Patriot act.

http://www.scn.org/ccapa/pa-vs-const.html

And even if you want to sit and argue the constitutionality, you can not deny that it gives the federal government and executive branch more power. I do not trust government with the power it had before the act and see it as more of a danger than i do any terrorists threats. Note this is not saying that I distrust Bush, i am saying I distrust the concentration of power in an office that will be held by many more people in my lifetime.

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 8, 2007 09:11 PM
57. Travis Pahl:

Ron Paul and a few politicians like him will out of principle not vote for legislation like the Patriot act if not given a chance to read it.

Fine, but that has nothing to do with what the law actually says. You said you are against what the law actually says. And I asked for specifics.

I did imply that the patriot act was bad yes.

And I am asking you to say why.

But it sounds like you need more specifics.

Not at all. I need ANY specifics. You've supplied none.

How about taking a look at this page

No, I will not. The point here is finding out if YOU know anything that is wrong with the Patriot Act. Do you?

And even if you want to sit and argue the constitutionality, you can not deny that it gives the federal government and executive branch more power.

In what way? Specifics! You've not given a single specific of any kind. You keep making claims and refusing to back it up.

Posted by: pudge on September 9, 2007 12:17 AM
58. I could write out everything that countless others have or point you to an URL that summarizes for me. You refuse to read anything on it unless I write it so let me first find out where we disagree.

1 do you think the act us constitutional?
2 do you think the act gives the executive branch more power?
3. do you think the act violates civil liberties?

if we disagree anywhere specifically then i will in my own writing tell you how you are wrong.

Travis

I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves.
Ronald Reagan

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 9, 2007 08:28 AM
59. Travis: sigh.

You made a claim. I just asked you to back it up. You wouldn't do it.

Shrug.

Posted by: pudge on September 9, 2007 11:57 PM
60. Pudge,
I have backed it up. I do not like it because it is...

1. unconstitutitional (proven in court)
2. gives the executive branch more power.
3. violates civil liberties.
4. was voted on without a single congressman reading it.

I will expand on any of these if you disagree with any of them. I am not going to write volumes on them all however because I have better things to do, but if you would be so kind as to just tell me which part you disagree with I will expand on it for you.

Posted by: Pudge on September 10, 2007 05:39 AM
61. Travis, oops, you signed as me.

And no, you didn't back it up. As you are a libertarian, you well know that just because a court says something doesn't make it true. Come on. And you didn't cite any examples of that.

You've also didn't cite any examples of the executive branch getting more power, or of violating civil liberties.

And your thing about people not reading it has nothing to do with the text of the bill, and is therefore irrelevant to my question.

It's not about me disagreeing, it's about you refusing to back up your claims.

Posted by: pudge on September 10, 2007 09:20 AM
62. Sorry about signing mty last post with your name. Not sure how that happened.

Again, please tell me which of the 4 parts you disagree with and I would be happy to back up my position.

Posted by: Travis on September 10, 2007 05:22 PM
63. Pudge is spoofing as travis.
LOL
lol,lol, lol.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 10, 2007 05:34 PM
64. I will address pudge as travis pudge from now on.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 10, 2007 05:35 PM
65. Publicbulldog, you have it backward: Travis spoofed me. Honest mistake.

Travis, you have it backward, too: I don't agree or disagree with something BEFORE it is backed up, but AFTER.

Posted by: pudge on September 10, 2007 09:26 PM
66. sorry,Ok then pudge travis it will be.
LOL

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 11, 2007 08:11 AM
67. Pudge travis,
lOTS OF PEOPLE SPOOF.
I think spoofing is part of wagging an issue.
Neo cons love to wag.
LOL.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 11, 2007 08:15 AM
68. Pudge travis,
You thread builder you.
Lol

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 11, 2007 08:17 AM
69. pudge travis,
Eric's next blog should say,Pudge travis has a lively debate with himself on all eyes on Derf .
LOL
Or all eyes on pudge travis.
Lol

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 11, 2007 08:21 AM
70. All eyes turn from Derf to Pudge travis.
Lol

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 11, 2007 08:22 AM
71. You can google me and tell that I am a real person and not just a sparring partner for pudge, unless an imaginary character ran for office in NYC.

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 11, 2007 07:57 PM
72. I think I will start spoofing too.
I need to give my idea's more credibility.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 11, 2007 10:44 PM
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