September 14, 2007
Third Party Paul?

In my last post on the GOP presidential debate in New Hampshire I briefly touched upon the notion of a Ron Paul third party run. Even though the Texas congressman has denied any plan, the notion is plausible since he was the Libertarian Presidential candidate in 1988.

Moreover, Paul has been ridiculed as a flake and a laughingstock for some of his political stances. During the debates Paul has been slapped around more than the hysterical woman character in Airplane! with his fellow GOP candidates lining up to get their licks in.

On the eve of Paul's visit to the region Seattle Weekly editor Mike Seely "The Most hated Man in Seattle Media" wrote that Democrats should support a Ron Paul run, for now, since it will encourage him to break ranks after he loses the nomination and will throw the race to the Democrats.

Very Clintonian - or Rovian - depending on how one views politics.

The effect of a third party candidate is always fascinating. The outcome of three of the past four presidential races were determined by 3PCs.

Oh?

Ralph Nader in 2000 and Perot in 1996 and 1992. (Conspiracy alert: I've always harbored a suspicion that the Clintons convinced one of the voices in Perot's head to run. If not in '92 then definitely in '96. Also Ross would have been elected Boss if he didn't go crazy in the summer of 1992 by deciding not to run, reconsidering and then accusing Republican "operatives" of sabotaging his daughter's wedding. Frightening...)

Who does a hypothetical Ron Paul third-party candidacy hurt more? Conventional wisdom would be Republicans. Right? I'm not so sure.

A Ron Paul 2008 Libertarian/Independent run just might hurt the Democrats since much of his support seems to come from that side. Especially when Hillary "Yes-Iraq-War-Vote" Clinton wins the nomination.

The reason Paul has gotten so much attention is because he is a Republican who is opposed to the Iraq War. How novel. This has made him a darling of the media and a messiah of sorts for anti-war activists and ex-Green Party types who chafe at being saddled with Democratic candidates who voted for the liberation of Iraq before voting against it. Or is it the other way around?

A bit of explanation, Paul's anti-war stance is quite dissimilar to that of the anti-war left who oppose America's role for one of essentially two reasons. You have your old-school commissars who stand against anything the United States does because the nation is an evil, imperialistic oppressor, etc, etc. They're your Ward Churchill types who feel America deserved to be hit on 9/11 or that it was an inside job. Then you have your "mainstream" Democrats who oppose the war because George W. Bush is a Republican. If Bush had a "D" behind his name instead of an "R" they'd be in favor of liberating millions of oppressed people living in two outlaw regimes.

Paul is neither. He is your classic 1930s-style isolationist crafted in the same mold as "Lucky" Charles Lindbergh. He misquotes George Washington's classic "no entangling alliances" speech. This was quite good policy during the Napoleonic Wars when America was a fledgling nation on the Eastern seaboard six-to-eight weeks sailing time from Europe. In a world of ICBMs, nuclear submarines, long-range strategic bombers, terror cells and outlaw regimes scrambling for nuclear, chemical and biological weaponry, relying on two oceans to protect a country is a dicey proposition. But who cares about historical lessons learned in WWII, the Cold War, Korea, The Great War...

He has the legalize hemp crowd buzzing. Who would have thunk marijuana legalizers find Paul's brand of politics appealing?

Part of his support comes from folks who want to "Ellen Craswell" the GOP domination process. I refer to the 1996 Washington state gubernatorial candidate that local Democrats crossed over to vote for in the open primary knowing she would be the most beatable opponent. After trying to spike the punch I don't see too many of these Democrats sticking around to sample their concoction when the 2008 general election comes around.

Finally you have your "Big L" libertarians who, lacking a party candidate of their own have piggy-backed on the GOP nomination process.

None of these are your typical GOP voter. To be sure there are Republicans who now oppose the war but it's mainly because they feel Bush is not doing a good enough job at killing jihadists. For an example, tune to Michael Savage during one of his rants about nuking Afghanistan or carpet-bombing Fallujah.

Extra:

In this Winnie the Pooh Parade of would-be presidents it is surprising that you haven't heard of too many other credible third party types. Maybe it's because everyone and his brother seems to be aleady running as a Democrat or Republican?

Over the summer there was a lot of chatter whether New York mayor and bajillionaire Michael Bloomberg would be throwing his purse in as an independent candidate. After all, one New York mayor running for president is just never enough. One can only imagine what an Empire State ménage a trois between Clinton, Giuliani and Bloomberg would look like during the debates.

The so-called experts predicting a run postulate that Bloomberg would further split the GOP. I fail to see how since his positions on "illegal guns", affordable housing, environmentalism, health care, etc. seem culled from planks on the Democrat platform.

At any rate Bloomberg says that he is not running. So spare some time to tune in to the David Letterman Show to watch for an announcement.

Posted by DonWard at September 14, 2007 07:41 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Third party candidates will have plenty of time to get in after they see who the main party nominees are with the front-loaded primaries this round. There may not be any space for them on the conservative versus liberal political spectrum. A Fred Thompson on the right and a John Edwards on the left might leave room in the middle but a Hillary/Rudy race won't leave enough room on either end of the spectrum or the middle.

Posted by: KW64 on September 14, 2007 08:57 PM
2. He is the longest member of the republican party running, one of the orginal members of the conservative coalition and the deputy minority leader, no one is more worthy of this party nomination then Dr. Paul.

Posted by: Brian on September 14, 2007 10:16 PM
3. If the Republican Party doesn't vote Paul in who has the backbone to stand up for the rest of us
The rest of them waver with the wind.

I think there would be room on the constitution party ticket for him.

42% of people who claim to be independent just migh have had enough of the Demopubs

Posted by: Flo on September 14, 2007 10:47 PM
4. If the Republican Party doesn't vote Paul in who has the backbone to stand up for the rest of us
The rest of them waver with the wind.

I think there would be room on the constitution party ticket for him.

42% of people who claim to be independent just migh have had enough of the Demopubs

Posted by: Flo on September 14, 2007 10:48 PM
5. If the Republican Party doesn't vote Paul in who has the backbone to stand up for the rest of us
The rest of them waver with the wind.

I think there would be room on the constitution party ticket for him.

42% of people who claim to be independent just migh have had enough of the Demopubs

Posted by: Flo on September 14, 2007 10:48 PM
6. It seems like a more appropriate topic on Paul would have been his successful fund raising trip to Seattle today. I was at the Rally at the Weston today where I am guessing there were at least 700 people there cheering Ron Paul. It was amazing.

Travis

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 14, 2007 11:09 PM
7. "During the debates Paul has been slapped around more than the hysterical woman character in Airplane!"

-------------

I stopped reading right there. You obviously weren't paying attention in ANY of those debates. Ron Paul stood his ground against an onslaught of ignorance en masse and came out on top EVERY SINGLE TIME according to the respective shows' own after-polls, which in Fox's case were text message polls that disallowed multiple voting.

This attack machine extends into the blogosphere and on TV shows as bought and paid for propaganda, no different than a political ad, seeking to discredit Ron Paul and turn people away before they even get a chance to understand his policies.

Journalism is supposed to be impartial. Journalism is supposed to be unbiased. Journalism is supposed to present the facts, all the facts, and nothing but the facts, but in this day and age, what passes for "journalism" is nothing but propaganda and mass-hypnotic perversions of truth.

Ron Paul is NOT an "isolationist". He's a NON-INTERVENTIONIST!

You can tell a HIT-PIECE like this one because the writer will refer to Ron Paul as an "isolationist" knowing full well his policy is "NON-INTERVENTION" in foreign affairs, which is a scary proposition to the military industrial complex that owns and runs our politicians and our media and just about everything else in this imperialist nation we used to call the United States.

To the writer of this piece of fecal matter...get a real job. You obviously suck at this one.

Posted by: Brad, Evansville, Indiana on September 14, 2007 11:35 PM
8. One can only wonder how much he paid them to show up.

Paul is a fruit loop, and I have a better chance of winning the lottery then he does getting nominated, let alone elected.

Posted by: Hinton on September 14, 2007 11:39 PM
9. And Brad... you can feel free your keep your Indiana ass off this board.

Posted by: Hinton on September 14, 2007 11:44 PM
10. 700 people at lunch time in Seattle. I could drop my pants and dance for quarters and get that many (or more).

And Don, most of us on the left opposed the war becasue we thought it was a distraction from fighting terrorism and a waste of lives and resources. Unlike the administration many of us also had the foresight to see that invading a county with forcibly constrained sectarian conflicts would result in instability and quagmire. We don't hate the war because of Bush, we hate bush because of the war. Its called accountability.

Posted by: Giffy on September 15, 2007 12:37 AM
11. As far as the "none of these are your typical GOP voter", I have several friends, family members, and acquaintances that I consider to be "typical" GOP voters that have come around to support Ron Paul. Mostly Reagan-repubs. I don't personally know of anyone that still supports Bush, however, and it's not (or at least not entirely) because of quagmire in Iraq.

Bush has accomplished absolutely nothing that he claimed he would do when he was campaigning. Social security is still an abortion. Humble foreign policy? Free trade? Nope! No matter what issue you are examining we are worse off now than before he took office. he hasn't done any of it. That's why, IMO, Repubs are shying away from the Bush.

Posted by: DavidM on September 15, 2007 01:00 AM
12. As a follower of the campaign since the Dr. Paul exploratory committee announcement in February, I can tell you 'Paul Third Party?' is not an option.

Dr. Paul answered the question, "If you don't get the GOP nomination, will you run as an independent?" He quickly answered NO without hesitation at a NH house gathering in early March. He's been there, done that, in '88.

Persistent ruminations of this possibility by the punditry is pure political 'what if?' mental masturbation that will not come to pass. Either Dr. Paul wins the GOP nomination, or he doesn't run in '08 general election. This question has been answered by the man in question and knowing his principled consistency is not likely to change.

"But who cares about historical lessons learned in WWII, the Cold War, Korea, The Great War..."

The lesson is that the Fascist Reich's Bank, er, Federal Reserve Board, is implicated as having a hand in promoting all of them for their own advantage. The bankers are the original shadow government and have had a hand in dragging us in to all the wars of the 20th century.

You want to point a finger at an 'isolationist' you need look no further than the current POTUS.


LeeL
----
"A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny."
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Posted by: LeeL on September 15, 2007 01:07 AM
13. In the debates nobody can win a debate with Ron Paul so they stoop to schoolyard tactics of ridicule. Or they interrupt before he can complete an answer. All the other candidates are pathetic, empty headed, arrogent, self righteous and belligerent know-it-alls. Who in reality are nothing but actors for the corporate and media/big government establishment. Yea, lets elect one of these! Get a life!

Posted by: Kurt on September 15, 2007 01:50 AM
14. I say this with all seriousness. The country will probably disintegrate and be carved up the Chinese if Ron Paul does not win. It will take time, but we are on the road to perdition.

America needs Ron Paul more than ever, and everyone who supports Ron Paul loves him as he is the closest thing to family we have ever seen in government.

Ron Paul, for what is just, what is right, and what is our Nation's root modus, the Constitution and Freedom and Liberty for All.


He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

Posted by: Mick Russom on September 15, 2007 02:45 AM
15. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

New world order:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

Income Tax Legal?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

Posted by: starcraft5045 on September 15, 2007 03:21 AM
16. Biggest threat:
http://www.ronpaulnation.com/tv.html#controller_general_david_walker

Truth about Giuliani
http://www.rudy-urbanlegend.com/

Posted by: starcraft5045 on September 15, 2007 03:24 AM
17. Bluster all you want, but Ron Paul needs to stay exactly where he is - representing Texas in Congress. He's apparently doing fine there.

Other than that, he's irrelevant.

Posted by: steve miller on September 15, 2007 05:33 AM
18. For those who think Ron Paul can't win, you might want to check the Las Vegas odds makers. They put Ron at 8 to 1, the same as Romney. In head to head matchups against Hillary, only Ron Paul gets better odds. The odds represent real people betting real money on the outcome and they are real careful about setting realistic odds.
Ron Paul does not pay people to attend his rallies. In fact, he doesn't pay most of his campaign workers. His support is spontaneous and 100% volunteer. The nearly 45,000 volunteers organized through MeetUp.com don't get a cent from the campaign.
And yes, Ron Paul is crazy. Anyone who turns down the lucrative Congressional pension must be crazy. Anyone who refuses to vote himself a pay raise must be nuts. Someone who actually believes in the rule of law is way out there.
As for his foreign policy being outdated, you need to understand that it is not about technology, it's about human nature. Human nature is the same today as it was in 1787. People are motivated by the same needs, the same prejudices, the same hatreds as they were then. If we in the US conduct our foreign policy in the manner recommended by the Founders, while maintaining a strong defense, we will be far safer than we are today. You might want to spend a little time reading Ron Paul's book on the subject.
If the GOP does not nominate Ron Paul, it will become extinct. The party "mainstream" no longer reflects the views of the American people - Ron Paul does.

Posted by: Michael Wagner on September 15, 2007 05:34 AM
19. You say he(Paul) misquotes Washington, I disagree Washington wrote in his farwell address: "Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances, with any portion of the foreign world." Washinton also wrote: "I believe it is the sincere wish of United America to have nothing to do with the political intrigues, or the squabbles, of European nations; but on the contrary, to exchange commodities and live in peace and amity with all the inhabitants of the earth." (To Earl of Buckam, 4/22/1793)You Seem to disagree about with the policy but Paul has the quote right. Washington could have taking about our Iraq policy when he wrote: "I have always given it as my decided opinion, that no nation had a right to intermeddle in the internal concerns of another; that every one had a right to form and adopt whatever government they liked best to live under themselves." (To James Monroe 8/25/1796) Again Paul is following Washington's foreign policy.

Posted by: Bob on September 15, 2007 05:44 AM
20. the somewhat suppressed libertarian in me celebrates Ron Paul, while the traditional conservative part of me remains cautious. I've always thought the proper place for libertarianism was in influencing the republican party, but I am tired of republicans not delivering less government and bureacracy, on fiscal matters, and mettling in areas properly left alone. I won't be voting third party, but I want republicans to get back to conservative values. whats it gonna take?

Posted by: eastkingcountyrednecklogger on September 15, 2007 05:45 AM
21. (Let's try that again.)
You say he(Paul) misquotes Washington, I disagree Washington wrote in his farwell address: "Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent Alliances, with any portion of the foreign world." Washinton also wrote: "I believe it is the sincere wish of United America to have nothing to do with the political intrigues, or the squabbles, of European nations; but on the contrary, to exchange commodities and live in peace and amity with all the inhabitants of the earth." (To Earl of Buckam, 4/22/1793)You seem to disagree with the policy but Paul has the quote right. Washington could have taking about our Iraq policy when he wrote: "I have always given it as my decided opinion, that no nation had a right to intermeddle in the internal concerns of another; that every one had a right to form and adopt whatever government they liked best to live under themselves." (To James Monroe 8/25/1796) Again Paul is following Washington's foreign policy.

Posted by: Bob on September 15, 2007 05:49 AM
22. Giffy,
Thanks (??!!?!) for giving me that picture before breakfast. (Just kidding.)

Posted by: Bob on September 15, 2007 05:55 AM
23. I think the article author is a silly willy winkie. Real conservatives like Dr Paul's policies. The 'Republicans' that you say oppose Dr Paul are actually the Neocons. The Neocons are nation building winning hearts and minds spreading democracy at a cost of 1 trillion dollars types, especially in Middle East matters.

Posted by: Ward Ciac on September 15, 2007 05:56 AM
24. I think the article author is a silly willy winkie. Real conservatives agree with Dr Paul's policies. The 'Republicans' that you say oppose Dr Paul are actually the Neocons. The Neocons are nation building winning hearts and minds spreading democracy at a cost of 1 trillion dollars types, especially in Middle East matters.

Posted by: Ward Ciac on September 15, 2007 05:57 AM
25. Paul is a darling in the media?

I see, that is why Gibson, Billo, Hannity, Savage, Levin, Malkin, Kos, Huffington, WND, Goler, Wallace, all the Republican candidates aside from Brownback, and all the other talking head mouthpieces line up to take shots at him.

Posted by: Chris S on September 15, 2007 07:07 AM
26. "But who cares about historical lessons learned in WWII, the Cold War, Korea, The Great War..."

Vietnam too?

What lessons would that be?

Do those "lessons" tells us to we need 750+ military bases around the world, a military budget equalling the rest of the WORLD COMBINED, and a policy of supposed pre-emptive war on terror/occupation/nation building-shattering and constant covert activity toppling other leaders when we deem neccessary?

Plenty of Americans don't understand this. Please explain it to us.

Posted by: infragreen on September 15, 2007 07:28 AM
27. Political bloggers= mindless shills regurgitating
revisionist history and MSM blathering points.

All they have are answers, with no real understanding of the questions, or the policies shaping them behind closed doors.

Conservative or liberal, same formula everytime.
All I have are questions, all they have are bad answers rooted in B.S.

Posted by: infragreen on September 15, 2007 07:49 AM
28. Paul is the only one I could actually vote for.

The rest of them would be a vote against their opponent.

The treatment of Ron Paul by the media and the GOP is detestable. It will result in his running third party, splitting the conservative vote and giving the Kilintonistas the White House.

Now, where's that blue dress?

Posted by: Independent Voter on September 15, 2007 08:43 AM
29. Let's see, some here are saying Ron Paul is not an isolationist. Of course the only two aspects of isolationism are economic protectionism and non-interventionism. Ron Paul has continuously on EVERY chance he's had voted down trade agreements that were being implemented to REDUCE trade barriers and tariffs. He was either a nut-job in those cases or was more anti-free trade than those who voted to REDUCE the trade barriers and tariffs. RON PAUL'S ACTUAL VOTING RECORD IS ISOLATIONIST he can talk all he wants but he hasn't walked the talk.

Someone on here says Ron Paul's views are mainstream America - I lost 8 pounds this morning, I don't know if it was from being ill from a bug or reading that. What do you consider mainstream America? When 70% of the public agrees on something, that's pretty mainstream. When 30% or 40% is that mainstream? Seems to me mainstream would be that area where only a few fringe peoples are left out, not where a few fringe peoples on each end of a spectrum are the only ones in.

Posted by: Doug on September 15, 2007 08:49 AM
30. I was convinced I would never again vote for a Republican on the national stage. Ron Paul might make me change my mind, especially against Hillary.

Posted by: CandrewB on September 15, 2007 08:54 AM
31. Let Paul run for Governor of Texas. It does not matter whether he is non-interventionist or isolationist in state government and we will see if he can manage.

Meanwhile,Republicans need to focus on candidates who could conceivably carry a national election. A check of RealClearPolitics.com is not encouraging. Only McCain and Rudy seem to be really competitive with Clinton at this point.

Posted by: KW64 on September 15, 2007 08:56 AM
32. It would be a cold day in hell if I EVER vote for transvestite, gay friendly, gun grabber Julie-Annie.

I'd vote for a Homocrat first.

Except Homocrat Julie-Annie.
-

Posted by: Independent Voter on September 15, 2007 09:05 AM
33. @14 "everyone who supports Ron Paul loves him as he is the closest thing to family we have ever seen in government."

Trying to give the LaRouchies a run for their money in creepy cult behavior are we.

Posted by: Giffy on September 15, 2007 09:07 AM
34. FWIW, one of the most well-known rightwing Republican publications in the nation, National Review, has often come out in favor of legalizing pot, ever since WFB turned over a new leaf on the issue -- so to speak -- in the 70s.

Also, hemp != marijuana.

Posted by: pudge on September 15, 2007 10:46 AM
35. Don writes, "the anti-war left who oppose America's role for one of essentially two reasons"

That's like talking about the pro-war right who favors the war for one of essentially two reasons -- because they want to spend a trillion tax dollars to help America's oil companies, or they want to see thousands of our brave soliders killed. You're setting up a ridiculous strawman and then mocking it.

The main reason most Americans oppose the war is that it was/is a horrendous waste of our soldiers' lives, our children's money, and our country's leadership role in the world.

Posted by: Bruce on September 15, 2007 11:35 AM
36. All us liberal Democrats urge you conservative Republicans to NOMINATE RON PAUL! (He makes Guiliani or even Romney look electable).

Posted by: blathering michael on September 15, 2007 01:57 PM
37. Let's face it - the reason Ron Paul has no chance of being nominated is that he doesn't represent the real Republican party. There's only two real planks in the modern Republican platform:

* Assign unlimited government power to an elected king, even unto the power to spy on, arrest, and torture American citizens without warrant.
* Reward loyal political allies with unrestrained government spending.

This used to be a country where we had nothing to fear but fear itself, and where at least the Republican party once fashioned itself the party of real principles. Alas, no more. Now the Republican party's turn towards big-government authoritarianism (incompetently and corruptly administered, at that) makes even the feckless and corrupt-as-they-ever-were Democrats look appealing.

Paul's a dinosaur. Even Alan Greenspan can't stomach where the Republicans have gone: to a post-modern worldview where everything is political, there's no use for data, and there's no such thing as truth - only semiotics in service of power.

Posted by: Authoritarians R. Us on September 15, 2007 06:32 PM
38. Ron Paul is a nutcase that will never get the nomination. Never. Ever.

Posted by: pbj on September 15, 2007 07:43 PM
39. PBJ,
Any other republican will not get my vote never ever ever.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 15, 2007 08:30 PM
40. Dear Republicans,

Libertarians are swing voters. We represent about 17% of the electorate. We love the free market and limited government. We love the Constitution because it is a highly (small "l") libertarian document. We are socially tolerant and know that the separation of church and state is what has lead to freedom of religion. Most of us are against the Iraq war, for immigration and against restricting abortion, but we are deeply divided on these issues.

We aren't too optimistic about the short-term success of the Libertarian Party. This is why only one or two percentage points among our 17% tend to vote for them. The rest of us divide pretty evenly between voting for D's and R's.

Our votes are therefore in play.

Our position is centrist. We are socially tolerant and fiscally responsible. There is something for both left and right to like in our postion. Adopting a mild libertarian position is an ideal strategy for "going right up the middle" to a win in November.

If you want our votes, you will have to run candidates that espouse our views.

The American people no longer support the Iraq war, even though a majority of Republicans still do. Here is what this means: the successful Republican presidential nominee will sound hawkish in order to win the nomination, but will then find some excuse to back troop withdrawals in order to move to the center before the November election. This will tick off the hawkish Republican base that put him there. This will make the candidate look like a hypocrite. It will also not be credible to the electorate. Everyone associates the Repbulican Party with the Iraq war. It is the stone that dragged down the R's in 2006.

Ron Paul is the only R candidate who has a credible voting record against the war. He is therefore the only candidate the D's should fear. Back the war and lose. That is the harsh reality for the R's. But they will never see this. They will fall on their swords over a failed and un-American foreign policy. The result will be another Democratic Party victory, with higher taxes, socialized medicine and increases in poverty.

Other posters above are right about Ron Paul's non-interventionism. He is pro-free trade and therefore not an isolationist. When goods cross borders, troops tend not to. His reasons for voting against NAFTA, CAFTA, etc, were that they violate our sovereignty and contained corporate welfare and special tarriff provisions that were unconstitutional. Any decent economist will tell you that unilateral tarriff reductions are in the interests of any particular nation, including the US. Look up Ricardo's Law of Comparative Advantage if you don't believe me.

But you are right, the GOP will never nominate Ron Paul. They have changed since their Goldwater/Reagan days. And this is why I do not vote for Republicans. This is why I am proud to say I vote for partisan Libertarians. When the GOP becomes the type of organization that can nominate the likes of Goldwater and Ron Paul, I may consider joining.

War is the health of the state, whether you are talking about military wars, the war on drugs or the war on poverty. War is the road to big government and to the loss of our liberty. It is usually Democrats who get us in to wars and Republicans who get us out. This has been mostly true since Woodrow Wilson. But too many of today's Republicans are big government Wilsonian socialists. I want no part of them and will not vote for the lesser of two evils. It just doesn't pay.

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on September 15, 2007 09:52 PM
41. blathering: for once I agree with a liberal!

That said, Giuliani and Romney are both very electable. You're not fooling anyone.

Authoritarians: you're an idiot. Every power Bush has is either granted to him by Congress or the Constitution, or is an honest and legitimate disagreement about one of those two, to be settled by the Court. That is how our system has always worked, and no one with half a brain and any serious knowledge about the Constitution disagrees.

For example, you mention spying, which the Congress (both parties) knew about and didn't complain about it until it became news, and which they authorized. There's the so-called torture, which in fact is not torture, which in fact the Congress authorized. And so on.

Next you'll be ignorantly whining about "signing statements" and "unitary executive."

As to rewarding political allies, the Democrats have done that over the years far more than the Republicans. It doesn't make it OK, but it makes it nonpartisan, which shows you to be wrong.

Posted by: pudge on September 15, 2007 10:03 PM
42. Here is a fun candidate calculator. Answer about 25 questions and it spits out the D or R Presidential candidate that most matches your views.

http://www.vajoe.com/candidate_calculator.html

This survey was developed by a veterans website, and it looks pretty non-biased to me. My free trade Democrat wife discovered a D candidate she did not expect.

I came up a Ron Paul fan, but not by as much as I had thought I would be. And there is a free-trade Democrat, former Alaskan Senator Mike Gravel who surprised me by coming in a close second. My usual second choices are Republicans.

I'll bet quite a few of you turn out to be Ron Paul-like libertarians.

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on September 15, 2007 10:07 PM
43. Bruce G.
Good points.
The war happy R's just don't get it.
They are going to let Derf (con 5) Thompson win the republican Nomination,and I simply will not vote for him.
I won't vote for greenie cop outs or any more boots on the ground.
The R's and D's candidates they will trot out in nov.of 2008 will not get my vote.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 15, 2007 10:12 PM
44. @41:

You're in denial. Sure, a supine congress authorized warrantless surveillance after they learned about it. Doesn't mean it wasn't illegal before they learned about it. Doesn't mean it's constitutional, either.

The so-called torture is torture. I simply don't believe you wouldn't call sense-dep, sleep-dep, stress positions, and waterboarding torture if they were practiced against American troops.

And what of the executive's alleged authority to detain US citizens on American soil indefinitely?

I didn't say the Democrats weren't corrupt and didn't themselves participate in the spoils system. I said they're as corrupt as ever. I also said that the Republicans used to take principled stands for smaller government and fiscal responsibility - and briefly pretended to abide by them.

Pudge, you are exhibit A with what's wrong with the party I was once proud to associate with. You call me names and rise to defend bad behavior by saying "the other guys do it." We're supposed to be better than the other guys. We're supposed to be the shining city on the hill.

Being a good Republican is no longer about doing what's right, and demanding that right behavior from one's elected representatives. Now it's just about rationalizing whatever "our team" does.

Nuts to that.

The first step to recovery is admitting we have a problem.

Posted by: Authoritarians R. Us on September 15, 2007 10:32 PM
45. ISSUE Do You Support? Importance
Abortion Rights Yes High
Death Penalty Yes Medium
No Child Left Behind Yes medium
Embryonic Stem Cell Research Yes Medium
ANWR Drilling No Medium
Kyoto Protocol No Medium
Assault Weapons Ban No Medium
Gun Background Checks No Medium
Patriot Act No High
Guantanamo No High
Water Boarding of Captives No High
Citizen Path for Illegals No High
Border Fence No Medium
Internet Neutrality No Medium
Iran Sanctions No High
Iran Military Action No High
Support Iraq War No High
Increase Minimum Wage No High
Same Sex Marriage No High
Universal Health Care No High
Free Trade No High
School Vouchers No Medium
Privatizing Social Security No High

Texas Representative Ron Paul (R)
63.89% match


Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 15, 2007 10:34 PM
46. Bruce,

Did you notice where they show how all the candidates did matching up with the people who took this quiz? Ron Paul was dead last from all Republicans and Democrats (followed by Gravel and Hunter). Giuliani was first. For the record, on this quiz my top three were Brownback, Giuliani then Hunter so I would really have to wonder about how they figured that one out. My bottom four from worst: Gravel, Paul, Obama, Clinton. How did a 'republican' get in there?

There was another site that did that by matching which statements you agreed with. I went through and agreed on all of them to test it and sure enough some of the candidates were represented by three times as many quotes so naturally they would have rated higher on avg. Just saying, don't put much credence in these tools.

Posted by: Doug on September 15, 2007 10:36 PM
47. It is interesting to see how many 'journalists', bloggers and commenters resort to name-calling to try to diminish the rise of the Ron Paul Revolution. As Ghandhi said, "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win". Ron Paul represents the awakening of Americans from all walks of life in a common effort to take back our country from power-hungry special interests and restore our freedoms and our CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. This is why previously apathetic and disillusion Americans are coming out of the woodwork to support his campaign. And no, they don't show up in a 'poll of likely voters', but they certainly are going to be voting for Ron Paul!

Posted by: Awakening on September 15, 2007 10:37 PM
48. Publicbulldog - way to show your true liberal self. Your 2nd, 3rd and 4th closest matches: Gravel (D), Edwards (D), Kucinich (D) and they were close to Paul. Your worst four? Tancredo, Brownback, Cox and Romney....so would Ron Paul supporters really ever consider voting for the Republican? Looks like from you two, you are closest liberals.

Posted by: Doug on September 15, 2007 10:49 PM
49. @44,
Pudge is typical of Washington State R's that think what works for the deep south or bible belt,will work here...one of these elections.
Pudge still believes in the R's national franchise.
I despise that thinking and I am tired of Tim Eyman being our only checks and balances because Washington State R's take the east coast playbook and run on a platform that has no chance here.every year now the R's get their butts handed to them,and then provide no checks and balances for our state.
Pudge refuses to budge on the Party line,and I think that that is his right,but I predict that that platform will again go down in flames up here in Washington State.
Pudge always wants proof of this,but the proof is in the election the last 10 years here in Washington State.
Now pudge still holds on the the R's platform nationaly even though it is clear that the R's
national platform is doomed.
He seems like a nice guy,and I do not think he is evil.
I just think he is wrong.
I am in need of checks and balances for washington State and I must convince the Pudges of the world that the R's need a west coast friendly platform that will gain more seats in the Washington State legislature.
Knowing Pudge he will want proof that that platform will win.
I don't have that proof,but I do know that the current platform Will not,and may never ever win another majority here or nationaly.
I predicted when Stephen Harper was elected that the neo conservative era has run its course ,and I still believe that.
Maybe pudge got a good deal when he sent away for the neo conservative election Kit,and he wants to see if he can coax another majority out of it.
I think it would be best if he took his neo conservative election kit to the deep south or bible belt.
He will still be able to scare people with his neo conservative election Kit there,but here in Washington State it has no chance.
I don't know who I am going to scare.
-N-I don't know who I am going to scare.
I still believe that I can win,AND not get my butt kicked again,I dont know who I am going to scare.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 15, 2007 10:59 PM
50. @48
It says my next 4 were Biden, Clinton, Mccain.
That would be 2 republican 2 liberals.
Although I believe a woman has a right to chose,I advocate having sex with someone that matters,and that you should refrain from having sex until you find someone that matters.
That makes me conservative on the issue but not so neo conservative,that I force a woman into a draconian decision that may end her life.
I also think same sex marriage is a slippery slope.
Why cant I marry my brother,and get benefits from his company.
Why not because we don't sleep in the same bed.
I don't want to go there.
I feel I am old fashioned conservative with a realization that we are in a more modern world than I would like to admit,which requires forgiveness,and that I not be such an agent of intolerance..

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 15, 2007 11:10 PM
51. Sorry Doug I clicked on the wrong link I see waht you are saying now.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 15, 2007 11:17 PM
52. If you call Ron Paul's debate performances "getting slapped around", all candidates should be so lucky. Ron Paul has won 4 of the 5 so far based on viewer polling, and placed second in the other. He's had two high-profile showdowns with other candidates, and had some of his best fundraising and volunteer recruiting days during the debates.

Posted by: Doug on September 16, 2007 12:00 AM
53. Publicbulldog:

Nothing you said about me is true. I defy you to back up with facts and reason a single claim you made about me.

I am not asking for proof about your political analysis. I am asking for proof that I "think what works for the deep south or bible belt," that I "believe in the R's national franchise," that I "refuse to budge on the Party line," or that I am in any way "neoconservative."

I won't hold my breath.

Posted by: pudge on September 16, 2007 08:44 AM
54. Authoritarians:

Wow.

Sure, a supine congress authorized warrantless surveillance after they learned about it. Doesn't mean it wasn't illegal before they learned about it. Doesn't mean it's constitutional, either.

Sigh. Key Congressmen knew about it before it was ever implemented, and only one of them (Rockefeller) raised objections, and his objections were very few (most of it was just CYA), and while he had the opportunity to do something about it (cut funding) he never lifted a finger. And there is no reason to suspect it is unconstitutional: the Democrat line all along has been that it is was only illegal because, in their opinion, it was forbidden by FISA, not because it was unconstitutional, because they know that Presidents of both parties have asserted that same authority for years, before FISA came along.


The so-called torture is torture. I simply don't believe you wouldn't call sense-dep, sleep-dep, stress positions, and waterboarding torture if they were practiced against American troops.

False. They are not torture because "torture" is a legal term and no law (including no treaty we are a signatory to) categorized them as torture. And you don't know me at all if you are going to pretend I wouldn't consistently apply my definitions regardless of the situation, because that is not me at all. Regardless, you are here complaining that Bush is ignoring the law, and then complaining when he follows it? Make up your mind!


And what of the executive's alleged authority to detain US citizens on American soil indefinitely?

Yes, what of it? Many of us Republicans, including me, disagreed with that -- claiming it is part of the party platform is a lie -- and the court properly overturned it. Notice that very few of these alleged infractions by Bush have been brought to court. Why do you think that is? Because the Democrats know that they would lose. This was one example where they (and we) were right, and it disproves your point that he is a "king," because the court overruled him and forced him to change his policy, which can't happen with a king.

Bringing up examples that disprove your point doesn't make you look good.

My view on such things all along has been to bring it to court, and that includes the "warrantless wiretapping." My position from the very beginning has been that Bush likely does not have the authority (sans Congressional act) to do this program, and that Congress should either authorize it explicitly, ignore it, defund it, or take it to court. Again, there's a reason they didn't do the latter: they didn't think they would win, because they didn't think they had a strong constitiutional case, but rather could defund it if they simply disagreed with it.

For that matter, I am also against some of the interrogation methods you mentioned, and I was on McCain's and Lindsey Graham's side during last year's fight over the Military Commissions Act. I am right there with McCain when he says we cannot have any legal exceptions to torture (though that doesn't mean the President cannot torture, it means that he would be violating the law to do so, and then the Congress would decide whether that torture was justified). That doesn't mean I have to pretend that any of those methods were properly defined as torture at the time: the law didn't call them torture, so therefore they were not.

I didn't say the Democrats weren't corrupt and didn't themselves participate in the spoils system. I said they're as corrupt as ever.

You directly implied -- intentionally or not -- that is is inherent to the GOP, because you (falsely) said it is part of the party platform.


I also said that the Republicans used to take principled stands for smaller government and fiscal responsibility - and briefly pretended to abide by them.

The overwhelming majority of Republicans do abide by them. Unfortunately, we have elected the minority of Republicans who don't. Do you spend any time in the grassroots? Republican voters are very angry at Republicans for acting like Democrats, which is why Republican voters stayed home in 2006. If your lies were true -- that the Republican platform is what you say, that Republicans don't take principled stands -- then Republicans would have come out to support our candidates in force last year.


Pudge, you are exhibit A with what's wrong with the party I was once proud to associate with. You call me names and rise to defend bad behavior by saying "the other guys do it."

I did not defend bad behavior. You're lying again: in fact, I explicitly said it was wrong! How the hell do you get "defend bad behavior" our of "it doesn't make it OK"? I was merely pointing out the fact that you were lying to imply that it was a partisan issue.

Posted by: pudge on September 16, 2007 08:51 AM
55. Pudge Travis,
I don't know what I am gonna to prove
-n-I don't know I am gonna to prove.
I could lay it all in black and white ,and you'd still try and fight.
I dont know what I am gonna to prove.
_n-I don't know what I am gonna prove.

Your puting me on your not a neo con,sittin there with your gloves on.
I don't know what I am gonna to prove
-n-I dont know what I am gonna to prove.
I swing at them you swing at me,what else am I going to see.
I dont know what I am gonna to prove.
-n- I dont know what I am gonna to prove
Why pick up their fight,n argue their right.
I don't Know what I am gonna prove....

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 10:13 AM
56. Travis Pudge,
My mistake forgive me If your not a neo con,then you are a contrarian.
contrarian
One entry found for contrarian.

Main Entry: con·trar·i·an
Pronunciation: k&n-'trer-E-&n, kän-
Function: noun
: a person who takes a contrary position or attitude;
Otherwise you would not be in goal for the neo cons.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 10:21 AM
57. Dear Libertarians,

You are not the political force you make youselves out to be. Perhaps it is delusion or your daily intake of "medical" marijuana that has distorted your perception of reality, but you clearly haven't a clue.

If each of you looks at the two parties and finds the Liberal Democrats closer to what you espouse, then you should vote for them.

But your idol threats don't stand up to logic. You state that if your nutcase Ron Paul isn't the Republican nominee, none of them will get your vote. Further, you state that you will not vote for a Democrat either. There goes any schred of political influence you may have had.

Each of you realizes that you are too small a group and as such as really not of consequence as a seperate party. That is why you all show up here to bitch and moan.

If society followed the true Libertarian philosophy, the green river killer would still be killing today. Pedophile would be free to abuse children. There would be no police at all because the distorted view of liberty you have is as distorted as the Democrat party misguidedly being called "Democratic".

You people of simply a bunch of whiny pothead who never grew out of doing the doobey post high school like the rest of society. So go back to Hemp Fest and leave running the country to the adults.

Posted by: pbj on September 16, 2007 11:13 AM
58. I believe that your assessment of Bloomberg as a third party candidate is wrong. He would split off more of the Democrat than Republican vote.

Ron Paul - hopefully he does not choose to run as a third party. If so, he will hand the presidency to the Democrat. His so-called debate wins translate into a 3rd (at best) or lower standing in all straw polls thus far and don't see it changing in the primaries.

Third party candidates kickback - that was the only way Clinton could have become president in the first place.

Posted by: KS on September 16, 2007 12:03 PM
59. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
60. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
61. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
62. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
63. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
64. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
65. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
66. Ron Paul is a joke. His alliance with his number 1 supporter David Duke shows he isn't a libertarian.

He supports the rights of leftists to fire reservists who go on deployment in Iraq.

He believes racial discrimination should be legal.

He believes sexual harrassment should be legal.

Why would anyone want this nut

Posted by: michael on September 16, 2007 12:13 PM
67. PBJ,
How very cryptic.
It must hurt knowing the R's have nearly become extinct here in Washington State.
Have you heard the role call at the State legislature lately?
The neo cons have killed the party.
Giving religion, Law Enforcement, and corporations the parties ring side seat all these years has gotten you a shriveling voter base and a job gathering signatures for initiatives. The neo cons love telling us what to do, Religion loves telling us what to do, and the corporations love telling us what to do. The people of Washington State are not going to vote for that stakeholder group anymore. R's sell the fears; D's sterilized and homogenized the fear into living wags jobs in the blue pages. The D's want us to move into an urban village, and pay them a living wage to provide services to people that don't need them because they are richer than the poor people they just socially engineered out of the picture. Your pot smoker was going to work the next day and not to the metal salvage yard, because your meth head can pass your piss test. Meth is bathtub gin all over again, Haven't we bought that fear before in the prohibition era. Oh well just stick it in the blue pages with the rest of the fears.
So pbj,
Enjoy your fat A$$ blue page section, your 10 dollar Cornish game hen, your 10 dollar sandwich, your new high rise condo; your utopian socialized mass transit system, your pot smoker in jail, your meth head leaving your garage headed for the metal salvage yard, your next raise just cuz, your neo world order, your cop out social engineering, your corporate gouge, your color coded threat conditions, your Tea 21,your crumbling original corridors with free old bridge rides, your criminal justice system stuffed with non violent criminals, and with your violent criminal out in a year and a day.
You have much to be proud for.
You have left our children with less of a life, more debt, more danger, less opportunity, and prices they won't be able to afford, living in places they don't want to live, riding on bridges they don't want to ride, hiding in places they don't want to hide, fearing things they don't want to fear, thumbing thru thick A$$ blue pages that outnumbers the business section.
Way to put us pot smokers in or place.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 12:52 PM
68. Micheal,
Who needs to spoof when there are boggers like you.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 12:55 PM
69. Hinton:

If you truly have better odds of winning the lottery than Paul does winning the nomination than I suggest you buy some tickets. Paul is currently at 7:1 odds according to sportsbook.com

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 16, 2007 01:12 PM
70. Do You Support Ron Paul?

Please sign and comment on the Ron Paul Is Right – Abolish the Federal Reserve Petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/fed/petition.html

You can now also vote for Ron Paul & others in the Free Market Hall of Fame Poll of legislators and government officials at http://www.freedomfest.com/halloffame and now see the results. There will be a drawing for every thousand voters where the winner will receive a free registration to the annual FreedomFest Conference to be held in Las Vegas in July 2008. This is a regular registration valued at $495.00

You also might want to read “The Final Presidential Executive Order” a fictional story about a future terrorist attack against the US and learn how a government extreme response elected Ron Paul as President of the United States at http://www.swissconfederationinstitute.org/swisspreserve14.htm

Posted by: Ron Holland on September 16, 2007 02:44 PM
71. Publicbulldog: so you have no response for me?

You had a response for people with different names than me, so I didn't read those responses. If you are afraid to respond to me, OK, but that seems kinda silly. But I am not going to get in the middle of this argument you have with someone else.

Posted by: pudge on September 16, 2007 03:25 PM
72. Pudge travis,
Row k Rorge

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 03:46 PM
73. Travis pudge,
Thanks to spoofing your good people.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 03:47 PM
74. Public Bulldog,

You can click on Pudges name and see videos and pictures with him in it and then you can google me and see my old campaign pictures and see we are not the same people. I simply wrote Pudge in the name response when I was trying to respond to him. If you want to harras someone and you are convinced we are one person, then please only respond the travis half of the persona, I am the one that made the mistake, not pudge.

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 16, 2007 04:48 PM
75. I'm just funin

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 05:42 PM
76. I don't know Who I am gonna spoof,
N I dont know who I am gonna spoof.
where's your proof you pot smoking goof.
I don't know who I am gonna spoof.
N I dont know who I am gonna spoof.
I aint him n he aint me don't mistake our same IP
I don't know who I am gonna spoof.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 05:49 PM
77. RE: pbj @ 57 and Michael herafter:

I just want everyone to know that not all those who oppose libertarian thought are like pbj and Michael above. It would be a straw-man/ad hominem/cheap shot for me to direct you to read their words above and then for me to conclude that my oponents obviously had no reasoned or valid arguments against me.

So I won't. :)

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on September 16, 2007 06:52 PM
78. I saw Ron Paul on TV talking about we have nothing to worry about Iran if we would just get out of Iraq. In my book he is a certified IDIOT.

Posted by: JC Bob on September 16, 2007 07:25 PM
79. He has never said that we have nothing to worry about. He is concerned but feels that threatening Iran with war is at this point counterproductive to what SHOULD be the federal governments primary if not only purpose (protecting Americans). He also trust pretty much every agency and groups assessment that they are no where near having a nuke.

Posted by: Travis Pahl on September 16, 2007 07:56 PM
80. Publicbulldog: I know you are "just funnin," but I still won't respond if you address me as someone else.

Nice try at the new verse for my song, regardless. ;-)

Posted by: pudge on September 16, 2007 08:36 PM
81. JC BOB,
Selling fear are we.
I fear you more than I fear Iran.
If you think you can trot out uncle Derf and get boots on the ground in the middle east you are wrong.
Mommy I cant sleep, Iran is under the bed.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 08:41 PM
82. Pudge,
LOL.
:0

Posted by: Publicbulldog on September 16, 2007 08:45 PM
83. Hey Don,

Ummmm.......read your history and figure out the difference between isolationist and non-interventionist. Ron Paul is a Non-Interventionist, only idiots think that the United States should be the world's police. Meanwhile back in China we are getting smoked in the manufacturing and technology sector. Go ahead and vote for your lying Hillary Clinton who knew all too well where that huge donation came from.

Posted by: Joe Lawson on September 16, 2007 09:41 PM
84. Don, help refresh my memory. Crasswell in '96, Carlson in '00, Rossi in '04 and who was it in '92 against Lowry.

I believe this was the one that turned me off on Rs. Crasswell was the icing on the cake, though.

Posted by: swatter on September 17, 2007 07:13 AM
85. The last time I checked, Bush is not running in 2008.

For Democrats to think about. Hillary is elected and the war in Iraq continues for two more terms. What will you say in defense of the first woman President?

Posted by: Snuffy on September 17, 2007 07:32 AM
86. publicbulldog,

Republicans should not become Democrats in order to get elected. They should not become the clarion of the pot smoking, won't grow up, freedom to do drugs crowd.

While I don't agree with Craswellian direction, heading over the edge leftward trying to out left the leftists is something so dumb, only a THC addled brain would think of it.

Posted by: pbj on September 17, 2007 09:43 AM
87. swatter is not bullfrog.

Who were the two Rs in the primary for governator in '92? Who did Crasswell run against in the primary?

Posted by: swatter on September 17, 2007 10:30 AM
88. Ken Eikenberry ran for guv in 1992.

Posted by: Don Ward on September 17, 2007 03:54 PM
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