Members of the IVAW (Iraq Veterans Against the War) are claiming that their unit commanders encouraged them to commit war crimes, and that these decisions are coming from the top down. They are having an event in March, and calling it "Winter Soldier."
This may remind you of 1971, when members of the VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) claimed that their unit commanders encouraged them to commit war crimes, and that these decisions were coming from the top down. They had an event called Winter Soldier, in which they presented these claims.
The problem is, the Winter Soldier event in 1971 contained many half-truths and even downright lies. That's not to say everything was a lie, of course; indeed, we know some of it was true. But you couldn't know from listening which was which, and without evidence, none of it could be trusted. We have many examples of incorrect and unverifiable claims, as well as claims that soldiers were pressured into saying they saw things they didn't see.
And the events themselves are only part of the story. VVAW, as IVAW is doing now, tried to create a larger narrative for which absolutely no evidence existed. For example, you may recall John Kerry saying the atrocities were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis," and that they were committed "with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." No evidence exists to support either claim. Nor is there evidence to support his claim that black soldiers died more than whites.
My point is, of course, not that IVAW members are lying. My point is that nothing they say is to be trusted without verifiable facts. This is, of course, no different from anyone else. We should always demand proof. But when the honor of the other vets is at stake, we should be even more cautious than usual.
It's very simple. If the IVAW, or anyone else, complains about atrocities, ask for evidence. If they provide none, or if what they provide is weak and insufficient for belief, then ignore their complaints.
Cross-posted on <pudge/*>.
Posted by pudge at January 22, 2008 02:17 PM | Email ThisService memebers are NOT required to follow unlawful orders.
If they do, they too become party to the crime and cannot use the excuse that they were ordered to commit these crimes.
Posted by: Sam Adams on January 22, 2008 02:51 PMRemember Jesse MacBeth? made up a bunch of lies about "atrocities" he'd committed. And even the Seattle Times had to write a story reporting that it just wasn't true. None of it.
This is what they do.
Posted by: Michele on January 22, 2008 03:34 PMThe point I made was not that I will selectively look at "facts," it is that I cannot KNOW whether they are facts, so I will refuse to look at ANY of it, unless evidence is produced. That is the OPPOSITE of selectively looking at "facts."
Similarly, I am not judging the soldiers. I am REFUSING to do so.
It is those people who accept what the soldiers say at face value who, in fact, are selectively looking at "facts" they know nothing about, and judging the soldiers they don't know and have never met. That they are doing so positively, in favor of those soldiers, does not make it any more logical.
I am judging something, though: you. You are committing various logical fallacies -- straw man, red herring, ad hominem --and are bringing race into an issue for which race is not related, and you are saying something is fascist that, in fact, has nothing to do with fascism. You have proved yourself to be either a troll, or irrational. I hereby judge you.
Posted by: pudge on January 22, 2008 04:34 PMAnother member of the hate-filled left. Of course HE isn't blinded by anything--oh no, not at all! LOL!
Posted by: Bill H on January 22, 2008 06:10 PMYou said: We should always demand proof
This isn't stopping the Evergreen Freedom Foundation and Jonathon Bechtle from wanting every state in the United States to spend billions to require photo IDs be shown in order to vote.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7hOALqbkHc
Where's the proof that voter fraud exists, Jonathon? Where? Anything? Any evidence whatsoever?
The lunatic claim of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation is that illegal aliens, who are subject to be deported, are somehow flooding the election system in order to cast of vote. They would then risk being deported as well as being charged with voter fraud, a felony.
The closest thing to proof that is cited by EFF is that in Washington state convicted felons voted illegally. Maybe I should point out to the brilliant lawyers at the Evergreen Freedom Foundation that felons HAVE photo IDs. And having a voter ID law would prevent exactly ZERO felons from voting.
So PUDGE, where's the proof?
At the very least this a huge expense and expansion of government that one might thing real conservatives would oppose. But that isn't happening either.
Where's the proof?
Now on topic. These groups constantly want to destroy our military. And people believe the lies they tell. Because the left does not need evidence if it follows what they believe is happening. Say a lie enough it is a fact. This is what they are good at. Lie, Lie, Lie. and you have to defend against a lie which is impossible. It is just a means to silence discussion on a subject that they do not want to support. Or discuss.
Posted by: David Anfinrud on January 22, 2008 06:37 PMIndeed, if you were logical, you would not be making the claim that we should wait to secure a system until people violate that system. Do you only lock your house after it gets burgled?
Nor would you be making the claim that a lack of prosecutions -- even when we KNOW fraud exists -- is the same as no fraud. There are many cases, just in the last few years, in WA where the government has declined to prosecute clear examples of fraud.
Nor would you call it a lunatic claim that noncitizens might vote, since the Congress found that noncitizens DID vote in large numbers in an election in Southern California last decade (Dornan vs. Sanchez).
Nor would you be making the utterly incorrect claim that this is either a huge expense, or a significant expansion, of government, since almost all voters already have an ID, and we already have a system in place to provide non-drivers with IDs.
All that said, I am not going to respond to you further in this thread, on this subject. But I just thought I'd tell you how illogical you are, in the obviously vain hope that you might get a clue in the meantime.
"You said: We should always demand proof
This isn't stopping the Evergreen Freedom Foundation and Jonathon Bechtle from wanting every state in the United States to spend billions to require photo IDs be shown in order to vote."
Photo ID is providing proof that you are who you say you are.
Photo ID is required to purchase cold medicines. It is required when buying boats over a certain size (if you're from out of state and want to avoid a specific tax). It is required to rent anything. It is required to cash a check or buy booze. It is required to enter Federal buildings or to go through to boarding areas at airports. It is required to enter the United States (legally, anyway).
If Washington provided, for free, a photo ID for every man woman and child, at say $10 a piece, it would cost only $64 million dollars. This could have been paid for out of the funds wasted by PoS, or by the DoT graving yards at Port Angeles, or by the Ferry system for their mismanagement. 1% for the arts for the viaduct could pay for gold plated ID cards.
Many things are a waste of money, but having a secure elections system with all potential avenues of fraud closed off is priceless.
These new "Winter Soldiers" will need to show more proof than just their photo ID.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on January 22, 2008 07:27 PMYour failure to learn more about the service and service records of the Swift Boat and POW Veterans for Truth leads you to automatically disparage them, because they had the audacity to confront Kerry and his reprehensible accusations to Congress against our military (my Dad and Uncle among them).
When substantiation was sought for the claims by Kerry and VVAW and the Winter Soldiers, little to no proof could be found. Some of those soldiers claiming to have committed atrocities were found to have never been in Vietnam.
Read Stolen Valor. If you are open minded, you will see how damaging Kerry, VVAW, and the Winter Soldier meeting was to our returning veterans, who deserved far better than they were given.
The troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan do not need to be smeared in the same manner and any smear campaign will have to provide irrefutable proof.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on January 22, 2008 07:42 PMNot that I know of. Nor has he ever explained why the honorable discharge that he did release was dated 1968. John Kerry served within a month or two of when I did. Active duty from April 1966 to 1970 and 2 years of inactive reserve duty till 1972. My honerable discharge is dated April 1972. His should be too. His is dated sometime in 1978. Considering what he was involved in from 1970 to 1972 while he was still technically a reserve officer in the Navy, I and many other wonder if he wasn't originally given a less than honorable discharge.
Jimmy Carter offered pardons to those who ran to Canada to avoid the draft and those with less than honorable discharges early in his administration. Many of us think that's when John Kerry's discharge was upgraded to honorable.
Like I said, as far as I know he's never explained the date on the discharge he has posted for public view.
Posted by: RBW on January 22, 2008 09:18 PMreactive soundbite politics are easy; thoughtful, researched politics meshed WITH history's perspective/lessons is quite another thing;
it requires us to put down our cell phones and remotes tuning those 151 channels and actually THINK!!! oh my gosh!!!
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on January 22, 2008 09:33 PMOf course there is voter fraud, your blabber notwithstanding; and if you don't know about it, it's only because you don't WANT to know about it.
That said, I believe the leftist scum behind VVAW are involved in this sorry effort... and I also believe that the very moment these clowns step out of line, they'll get hammered... in large part because of the scrutiny their forerunners require of all the lies and half truths favored by the left as they attack their own country.
Posted by: Hinton on January 23, 2008 12:15 AMSeeing as how all he could come up with was to paraphrase- they are liars, tells me that those records were pretty damning and the Swift Boaters were right on.
Posted by: swatter on January 23, 2008 06:27 AMBillions? No...you have that confused with the number of hamburgers sold by McDonald's to date.
Since anyone who drives in this country already has a government-issued photo ID, and since you have to be 18 to vote, and since most who are 18 and older drive...VOILA...No problemo!
But...you could care less since you're a flack for flat-earth leftist thinking. How's that impeachment stuff working out for you? Did you hear how your homeboy, Eric Oemig, got his ass nailed to the barn door by Dori Monson yesterday? And how Dori called him a liar?
I'll bet you're all orgasmic over IVAW, aren't you? Do you realize what a slam that is against the soldiers and Marines serving in Iraq and 'stan? Essentially inferring that they're all butchers in waiting on the cusp of genocidal war crimes and under the command of bloodthirsty Eichmann-like officers.
Now, simple common sense - not to mention a complete absence of credible evidence - says that that's total bupkis B.S. Why don't you take the opportunity to denounce it for the blood-libel it is? Or would you care to go on record calling our soldiers and Marines a gang of war criminals? Would that be Eric Oemig's opinion of them? Talk about your aid and comfort...
This is personal for me...My oldest is an army staff sergeant and Iraq war vet (with time also in Kuwait and 'stan) and my youngest is a Marine lance corporal, so IVAW essentially damns my kids as tantamount to the world's worst war criminals.
You want to go there? Or would you rather just shut up!
The Piper
Posted by: Piper Scott on January 23, 2008 09:16 AMJesse McBeth ANYONE???
So I don't put much stock in the rest of the liberal retro 60's propaganda efforts.
Posted by: pbj on January 23, 2008 09:28 AM1. My name is Steven J. Pitkin. I am over the age of twenty-one years, and I am fully competent and able to make this affidavit. I am able to swear, as I do hereby swear, that all facts and statements contained in this affidavit are true and correct and within my personal knowledge.Posted by: SouthernRoots on January 23, 2008 10:47 AM2. I am a combat veteran of the Vietnam War, having served with the Ninth Division of the U.S. Army beginning 25 May 1969. A mortar explosion wounded me, my wounds gradually became infected, and I was treated in an Army hospital in Okinawa. I contracted hepatitis C from blood transfusions I received during that time. I left Vietnam on 28 August 1969 and was honorably discharged from the Army on 9 September 1970.
3. Medals received for my Army service include: Combat Infantry Badge, Army Commendation Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, Vietnam Campaign Medal, RVN Cross of Gallantry, Air Medal, Purple Heart.
4. During my service in Vietnam, I neither witnessed nor participated in any American war crimes or atrocities against civilians, nor was I ever aware of any such actions. I did witness the results of Vietcong atrocities against Vietnamese civilians, including the murder of tribal leaders.
8. During the Winter Soldier Investigation, John Kerry and other leaders of that event pressured me to testify about American war crimes, despite my repeated statements that I could not honestly do so. One event leader strongly implied that I would not be provided transportation back to my home in Baltimore, Maryland, if I failed to comply. Kerry and other leaders of the event instructed me to publicly state that I had witnessed incidents of rape, brutality, atrocities and racism, knowing that such statements would necessarily be untrue.
As a medic with the 57th Medevac(Dustoff) 71/72 My job was to save ANYONE!
During that tour I never once saw our guys ever commit war crimes. But I sure saw what the VC did to women, mem & children.
Winter JERKS are a joke. I could say more about them, but why put my B/P any higher.
You need to learn the real truth!
PS why ask Kerry? He only had a 3.5 month tour and it was in a Boat. He never saw ground action.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on January 23, 2008 03:10 PMI saw their likes while I was in during the early 90's and had one mutt in my squad actually damage his hearing intentionally (by knowingly firing a SMAW without ear plugs) in order to get an early out.........lost nearly 70% of his hearing in one ear for the rest of his pathetic life in order to cut his service commitment by 1-1/2 years. Hope it was worth it......
Posted by: Rick D on January 23, 2008 08:59 PMMy dad was a Lieutenant in a reconaissance platoon in the 3rd Armour Division that went across France and into Germany. My dad always said that crossing France was easier, and that it got much tougher to make progress once they crossed into Germany. He always told war stories all his life, we heard the same ones again and again. I suspect life was a bit of a letdown for my dad in some ways ever after the war. One story he told was that they emptied a building and 7 soldiers and 5 civilians came out with their hands up. It was the day after my dad's best buddy got killed. Suddenly, as my dad always said, two Free French, (who he always accused of being unnecessarily cruel) opened fire with a machine gun and killed the unarmed prisoners. He was so angry about this he turned and shot both the Free French in the knees, according to the story he always told and we always credulously believed.
On his death bed in '82, in a moment of anguish with lung cancer he had courtesy of the US Army, (of course, the tobacco thing was viewed differently back in the 40s) he told my mom that he was the one who killed the prisoners.
Is the original story true? Is the confession true? If it wasn't, why would he have spent some of his last moments with his wife making it. Still, nobody knows, and it's the last thing in the world I'd ever want to try to research.
It doesn't make me think less of the memory of my dad, but it makes me a strong believer that war is something you don't start when there are still plenty of alternatives, or more appropos of this particular current war, absolutely no reason to embark on it in the first place.
Good luck to everyone who is trying to bring our troops home--Godspeed.
Thanks all, new left conservative #1
Posted by: new left conservative #1 on January 23, 2008 10:08 PMI agree with what you say, except for your conclusion that there were plenty of alternatives to invading Iraq, let alone "absolutely no reason" to do it.
And I've been trying to get the troops home since late 2003.
War sucks. It is awful, and we should do whatever we can to avoid it. If you think we could have avoided this one, fine. I don't. It was coming now or later, and if it came later, it is my belief it would have come in the context of a large-scale regional, if not world, war. That war still might be coming.
I don't want to overdo the analogy, but if Britain had attacked Hitler's Germany earlier, well, your dad -- or someone else -- never would have had to kill those prisoners.
Thank you for your father's service, regardless of whether he did something wrong in the heat of war.
Posted by: pudge on January 23, 2008 10:35 PMJust go to Olympia, she's sitting in the Governor's chair where Dino Rossi is supposed to be...
Photo ID for voting is a great idea. It should also be accompanied by proof of a MORTGAGE.
Posted by: Scott on January 24, 2008 10:02 AM