As reported by KING5, terrorists claiming to be from the Earth Liberation Front have burned down empty homes in Woodinville.
I have nothing much to say about this, because the criticism is obvious. I would like to point out that, apart from the obvious fact that this creates pollution and causes even more trees to be cut down, that using trees for houses is actually a good thing for the environment, provided they are older trees: they are mostly full of CO2 and we can cut them down and replace them with new trees that can suck up more CO2. But when you burn down a home, that releases the stored CO2.
Burning down homes is one of the worst things you can do for the environment: far worse than building them in the first place. But terrorists don't really care much for facts.
Cross-posted on <pudge/*>.
Posted by pudge at March 03, 2008 09:54 AM | Email ThisThis is the state of the Progressive Left today. Any means necessary. And violence will be excused, as long as it is on the left. Can anyone imagine how big the type face would be on the front page headlines if some right wing extremist did something equally egregious?
What they want is not the liberation of the earth, for the earth is not incarcerated. No, what they want is the destruction of man. So there sentences should fit the crime. The should never be allowed to live within the confines of a warm modern space. They should be forced to live in the ideological outcome of their terrorism; primitive huts.
Posted by: Jeff B. on March 3, 2008 10:08 AMIt's useless to try and make sense of things like this, much like trying to make sense of a suicide bomber who blows himself in a market full of innocent people. Neither is helping their cause.
Posted by: Palouse on March 3, 2008 10:11 AMI'm not supporting liberals or the left or anything like that, but the comments made thus far in this thread are no different than painting all pro life folks (such as myself) as abortion clinic bombers.
Get a grip.
Posted by: Andrew Brown on March 3, 2008 10:12 AMI think if anybody wants to look through history, the violence of the left is pretty obvious. They must use violence because nobody will abide by their screwball polices and naive thought experiments for "modern" living.
Ha, ha, ha! Looks like I inadvertently made a bit of a joke. "Modern" living to these jackasses is going back to the 1800's. Square wheeled carts for all!
Now, having said that the political discourse in this country has become so coarse that a Cindy Sheehan type labels President Bush as the biggest terrorist in the world from the perspective of the left and on the right anyone that disagrees with that position is labeled as a terrorist as well. What folks fail to realize is that as long as people are advancing their ideas through the legitimate political process and are not using violence, they can pretty much say or think what they will. I happen to think Dr. Paul and his supporters are kooks, but I respect them for getting out there with their signs and attending caucuses and not resorting to violence to advance their agenda.
Violence to advance an adgenda is wrong, so as they say on Hawaii 5 O, book em, Danno.
Posted by: WVH on March 3, 2008 10:23 AMImagine, if there were no humans, there'd be no pollution, over-population (human), loss of habitat, etc., etc.
So, we chould all go home now, release our cats and dogs (snakes, lizards?), and drink some Jim Jones Kool-Aid for lunch! Yeah, that'll work!
Posted by: Politically Incorrect on March 3, 2008 10:32 AMNo nothing caused these homes to burn faster.
We were still wood frames with no sprinker system installed ( I'm a Firefighter )
PS I would like to thank all the people who supported me in my Tower climb.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080303/NEWS01/147353132&news01ad=1#Firefighter.honors.her.grandmother.with.stair.climb
On topic- I hope the Feds start taking serious this domestic terrorist group ELF. These imbeciles can't be that difficult to infiltrate and put them out of business like they've done with the Mafia and white supremacist movements. Hopefully, that mutt on trial will get the maximum of 30 years for helping to bomb the UW building a few years back and send a chilling message to these unwashed liberals that think they're serving some kind of altruistic purpose. Start hanging 30 year sentences on them and/or milk their bank accounts and their membership will dry up double quick.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 3, 2008 11:24 AM*GROAN*
You realize you just dated yourself don't you? He he. BTW, there is a new channel 7.2 which is the Retro Television Network (RTN) and they show old Five-O episodes.
I just dated myself too!
Posted by: pbj on March 3, 2008 11:31 AMI would hardly call WVH a troll. She is a regular commenter here, and even though her comment is off topic, it was thoughtful and in no way offensive.
Posted by: katomar on March 3, 2008 11:52 AMOf course not. Goldy is ideologically aligned with ELF. Goldy believes in increased statism. Goldy believes the government ought to be in charge of what we drive, how big our houses are, what are thermostats are set at, how much land we can own, what lightbulbs we should use, and when and where we should use transit.
You're not going to find anyone on the Progressive left disagreeing with angry Marxist aligned movements like ELF, ANSWER, La Raza, etc. If pressed, they might issue some brief anti-violence statement, but largely today's Progressive left sees value in their alignment with the terrorists. Because the end goal is the same, decreased freedom, increased authoritarianism.
Terrorists, like Progressives can't sell their ideas in a free market of ideas. They have to use force, be it through a diplomatic process of more laws, or through a violent process of burning down houses. Either way, the result is an ideological sanction of decreased freedom, and an anti-man agenda. The government is legal force, terrorism is illegal force. Either way, it is force to get you to fall in to line.
I am un-publishing comments that are responses to Stefan's posts. This is not the first one I've "deleted," and hopefully it will be the last, but I will continue to do so if comments continue to show up. Use the "Public Blog."
Heck, if I were you guys (those frustrated at Stefan not allowing comments on his posts), I'd create a new "Public Blog" post for every article Stefan writes. So he has one called "Barack Obama's Church." Write a new "Public Blog" post called "Re: Barack Obama's Church." Everyone can reply to Stefan's post there.
You're welcome!
(Please, do not respond to this comment either. Just move along.)
Posted by: pudge on March 3, 2008 11:54 AMI am going to suggest that anyone who doubts that the left is pure evil read this article carefully and then listen to the tapes yourself. They are on U-Tube.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/308723.html
Just a couple of weeks ago I made the case that the left is the modern home of racism - and was attacked for doing so. OK read the Statesman article above and then tell me that the Party of Robert KKK Byrd is no longer the home of racial bigotry after reading this.
Here is a short excerpt fromthe article: The call to Idaho came in July to Autumn Kersey, vice president of development and marketing for Planned Parenthood of Idaho.
On the recording provided by The Advocate, an actor portraying a donor said he wanted his money used to eliminate black unborn children because "the less black kids out there the better."
Kersey laughed nervously and said: "Understandable, understandable. ... Excuse my hesitation, this is the first time I've had a donor call and make this kind of request, so I'm excited and want to make sure I don't leave anything out."
We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Margaret Sanger, Founder, Planned Parenthood, Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon
The frightening thing is that in a county run by leftists like Ron Sims, who promote policies based on the myth of man-made Global Warming, the benefits of mass transit over private automobile ownership, or the right of government to take private property from rural homeowners for the greater good, how far-fetched would it be to read sympathetic comments from Sims or others from the left towards these terrorists, given that we all know they are far more sympathetic to their actions than they would ever let on?
Alot of that over at the Pee-Eye too. Would seem counterproductive if it's true that most insurance doesn't cover acts of terrorism.
Posted by: Palouse on March 3, 2008 12:16 PMStefan, at this point is not allowing comments and since he has stated on other threads he is not a Christian, there should be some explanation.
Now, you on another thread have not denied that you are a racist. So, I guess in your world all Black people are janitors, trolls or subhumans. I have not found that Stefan is racist, but his religion is not Christianity.
I in no way intended to divert the thread and the public blog is very kind of the site, but most people don't look at it because there isn't time. Now, let me bring my comments back to this subject. There seems to be a lot of just plain hatred on both sides. People here think that all people on the left are looney, unreasonable, and prone to violence. Guess what, people on left think the same of those who don't have the same ideas. It seems that the politics are so poisoned that it is impossible to work for the common good however that is defined. All both sides do is label those they feel are different. Violence is not the answer but increasingly folks from abortion protestors to ecoterrorists seem to be using that option. It starts with just plain hatred and goes from there.
I do believe the list of anti-abortion violence would be much shorter than the list of the almost weekly occurrences of leftist violence. Just off the top of my head I can name the anti-Marine protest in Berkeley, the anti-police riots at Evergreen State College, and now the apparent ELF arson in Woodinville.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 3, 2008 12:39 PMThe comparison was made between ELF idiots (that some folks here choose to embolden by giving them terrorist status instead of writing them off as the loony criminal nutcases that they are, which would actually hurt their cause -- and self image as a progressive revolutionary soldier -- more) and people who I vehemently disagree with on an ideological level, but who will still have a beer with me without trying to burn down my home or throw red paint on my GTO.
To bring up the risk to firefighters has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the comparison that I took issue with is a fallacious one.
Bill Cruchon @ 33: Do you agree that it's a few bad apples on the left that participate in this sort of idiocy? I have to assume that any sane individual would do so, but one must establish common ground in a debate, so I ask anyway.
If you do, then you should be condemning the first few comments in this thread as well for the logical abortion that they are.
Posted by: Andrew Brown on March 3, 2008 12:56 PMCheck out this link if you want to see the type of losers we are dealing with here.
Posted by: JDH on March 3, 2008 01:06 PMNo.
Barack Obama apparently associates with 1960's Weather underground bomber Bill Ayers. And guess what? Ayers is now, like many radicals from the '60's, teaching at a major university.
~~~
"Peaceful" protesting in Berkeley
The leftys regularly uphold their credo if challenging authority, mostly in a violent ugly way... then call us immature.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on March 3, 2008 01:13 PMNo "side's" hands are clean, and do not point fingers at the other "side" and pretend that your "side's" hands are.
The people who torched these houses are criminals and terrorists, and they should get the maximum sentence that the law allows. They are not on my "side," Jeff and Allan, and I am not on theirs, and if you say I am, you are liars.
On Topic- This woman/eco-nazi on trial now is calling for a mistrial due to her fellow nazi's actions this morning. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I say give her and the rest of here little anarchist playmates 30 years to life and suck every red cent out of their movement. Rant alert: **Why do the news reports find it necessary to describe her as a "teacher and mother"?** She's simply an eco-nazi that evidently has no qualms about sacrificing her child's future for her little, misguided attempt at getting back at those that have the means by which to live in the abode of their choice. Class warfare is taught in these little enclaves like Evergreen State college, and federal money should cease to go to these institutions of lower learning. It would also be a great start for the feds to infiltrate the "unwashed" that belong to this movement and their "pony-tailed socialist professors" who can't seem to let the 60's go.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 3, 2008 01:30 PMIt's just that one is much dirtier than the other.
Yes, yes,... you'll whine but the facts remain that those aligned your side conducted Berkely, WTO, UW and now Woodinville.
Let's inject logic into that collection of speculation, hyperbole, and generalization that you just posted.
1) You just used the word 'associates' to denote ideological agreement between two individuals. I associate with my best friend, who is a vehement democrat, and yet I alternate between libertarian and republican depending on the issues in question. Thus, this premise is not necessarily true.
2) Barack Obama is not the entire left. I know you knew that, though, even though you chose to imply it, perhaps hoping that it would go unchallenged.
3) Even though Barack Obama is POPULAR with the left does not mean that even if he supported violence such as this - and I'd like to think that even you, in your blind generalizations, could admit that such a case is unlikely - that the entire left that supports him does. Many don't even know.
So, good sir, again, I wholeheartedly condemn what these lunatic criminals did, but to say the whole left supports this sort of thing is not only idiotic, it's a detriment to Republicans everywhere because you make us look like fools that can't even get basic logic right before we open our mouths and start pointing fingers.
Posted by: Andrew Brown on March 3, 2008 01:46 PMBut it's not at all idiotic nor a lie to say they don't jump up to condemn it either.... and we see far left sites like kos, huffington and HA allowing their supporters to cheer and encourage that kind of behaviour.
I am not going to get into a personal name-calling match with you, Andrew.
For people who are anti-sprawl activists -- or have baser motives -- a new-built house sitting empty in a previously rural area evidently makes a ripe target for an attack by fire.
Compared to the Times' generalization, the comments here have been mild.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on March 3, 2008 01:58 PMNobody who torches a building is "aligned to my side." So stop your lies.
Posted by: ivan on March 3, 2008 02:05 PMThat's good, but perhaps lacking in relevance to our conversation. I haven't called you any names, choosing instead to help police my group's use of illogical arguments - after all, as Ragnar implied, if I'm not speaking out against it I must support it, right? (Sarcasm)
Posted by: Andrew Brown on March 3, 2008 02:06 PMS&P said it placed all of the Times' ratings, including its key long-term corporate credit rating, on CreditWatch with negative implications. In plain English, that means the rating agency is leaning heavily toward a downgrade unless current financial trends at the company improve.
S&P currently assigns the Times a long-term corporate credit rating of BBB. A one-notch downgrade would bring the rating down to BBB-. But in a research note Friday, S&P credit analyst Emile Courtney warned that a possible downgrade "may not be limited to one notch."
That would drop the Times' long-term rating to BB+ or worse, which would leave it at sub-investment grade, or junk. And that, in turn, could increase borrowing costs for the Times.
Read the rest here:http://www.forbes.com/home/business/2008/02/29/times-credit-ratings-biz-cx_lh_0229nytimes.html
And Pudge, perhaps these eco-terrorists know that the anthropogenic global warming theory is just a ruse to further one-world socialism, and that no significant harm is done to the environment from releasing a little more CO2 in to the atmosphere.
All these eco-terrorists have damaged is the property rights of the owners, and we all know that socialists do not believe in property rights... especially the property rights of others...
I like Jeff B's point @ 2: if they are caught, they ought to be forced to live in a primitive way. But first, they should work off their restitution to the property owners or their insurance companies.
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on March 3, 2008 02:15 PMSaltherring @35 up'ed my idea with a great solution to that problem. Put them to work at hard labor, where they can work off their multi million dollar crimes by day, and then at night, they can head back to their grass huts in the prison yard.
And to the rest, if you agree with the outcome that their ought to be limits on those greedy mcmansion homeowners and their land, who should have little or no right to build, or at least not without intense governmental regulation, then you are aligned with the goals of the eco-terrorists.
It may be that you are civil enough not to burn down a house to achieve the same goal, but you are still anti-freedom, and that's the point. Some want to read in to ideologically aligned as meaning, endorsing, but there is a difference. You can disagree with the eco-terrorists' methods while still agreeing with their outcomes. And that's very common with today's Progressive left that believe in Critical Areas Ordinances, aggressive growth boundaries and environmental bureaucracy, meant to limit what people can do on their private land.
The fact remains that egregious statism is a mutual goal of Progressives and eco-Terrorists with the outcome being diminished freedom and limited property rights. You'll find many on the left who will disown the violence, but few who will disown the outcome. Do these developers have a right to build big houses? Do you think there should be limits on where they can build and what they can build? Do you think there is some poetic justice in that they make profits off of big houses and they lose those profits when they are destroyed by arson? No one is saying that any majority favors arson, but there is a sizable population on the left that views one man's right to the size, shape and location of his castle as an imposition on the general good.
I'll have to disagree with you there, pbj.
I think Ivan just doesn't realize that his party is no longer the party of JFK, Warren Magnuson, and Henry Jackson.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 3, 2008 03:12 PMThe questions you have to answer to determine whose "side" you're on Ivan, are... did I agree with the fundamental underpinnings of the WTO crowd (anti-business), the Berkeley crowd (anti-military), the UW crowd (trees ahead of research) or the Woodinville crowd (environment above PEOPLE, profit, business)?
THAT's how we decide which side you're on.
Clearly conservative ideology, as a whole, is pro-business, pro-military, pro-research and certainly pro-people as opposed to your liberal ideology.
You chose those with whom to get in bed... don't whine the bedbugs aren't yours.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on March 3, 2008 03:19 PMI mentioned CO2 because I would be willing to bet, however, that the ELF terrorists DO believe CO2 causes global warming. :-)
WTO
UW
Eco-terrorism
anything else? i'm sure there's more.
Posted by: FreedomLover on March 3, 2008 03:31 PManything else? i'm sure there's more.
Don't forget destroying our state from Department of Corrections fiascos, to DHHS oversight failures, to discontinuing the WASL requirements (afterall,it takes up too much study time that can be used to further indoctrinate future eco-terrorists). Democratic leadership in this state (and on a National basis)is little more than an oxymoron.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 3, 2008 03:54 PMTake a gander over to the P-I website and you'll find plenty of comments like this one:
and if it really was *eco terrorists* - good for them. The people who cut down trees and level the land to build houses that are way too big for this earth are the REAL eco terrorists.
Posted by: Palouse on March 3, 2008 04:06 PMI think the punishment for eco-terrorists should be split weekly between High Tech housing and primitive dead twig lean-toos.
During the high tech housing, they should be forced to watch the Discovery Channel's "How It's Made" via 24-7 TV monitors. Programming should include bicycle, gore-tex, dacron fleece and computer manufacturing in excruciating detail.
From resource extraction to disposal of the products.
Early release for those who can pass rigorous testing on the subject matter.
A documentary movie could result. Perhaps titled, "A Clockwork Green".
Posted by: Bart Cannon on March 3, 2008 04:29 PMLet's not forget the violent protests at the Ports of Tacoma and Olympia and the riot at the Evergree State Playpen chanting concert.
Posted by: Saltherring on March 3, 2008 04:43 PMno ...)
anyway, if I were fire chief I would definitely not rule out an insurance fraud arson. Come on, man, the market is going downhill, no one has bought those houses even though they've been finished for a while, the surveillance cameras were turned off (just from what I read).
I have no appreciation at all for the left-wing enviro-nuts, either, Michelle, but it'd be very easy for the builders to spray paint their own idiotic slogans on the wood, etc. to set investigators on the wrong trail.
This case is not one for either Danno or the non-howlie guy, whatever his name was. This has to go direct to Stebe (McGarret, I mean, "Stebe" is what the Hawiaan guy who's name I cannot remember calls him.) Yes, yes, OK, I watched 5-0 too. Say what you want - at least I'm not an enviro-wacko!
ELF is very likely the culprit. It's pathetic when people make excuses for bad behavior by throwing out some likely red herring.
Posted by: Michele on March 3, 2008 05:08 PMNo, fraud should not be ruled out.
But there is no reason to bother investigating it, either, unless the ELF leads don't pan out.
It is not impossible, it should not be ruled out, but it is very unlikely.
Posted by: pudge on March 3, 2008 05:28 PMha...doesnt that remind you at outrage by Joel, Dave Ross, etc when they whine about the secondary impact of bold talk by Rush etc...the notion that big talk by a few leads others to start fires, and thus we should censor them
time to call for shutting down Dave Ross?
Posted by: righton on March 3, 2008 06:40 PM
Ms. Waters was born in Berkley,CA and attended Evergreen state sanitarium....err college where in 1998, The New York Times Magazine quoted her, then a senior, as saying she "supported politically motivated arsons as long as no one gets hurt."
I guess the only one hurt with a long prison sentence will be her child.....which given Mommy's predilection for eco-terrorism, is probably better off with someone more psychologically stable as a caretaker anyway.
COULD separate builders be so stupid as to torch their own houses all at once in the same neighborhood on the same night? sure, but as some would say, when you have a runny nose and sore throat, assume a cold virus first--not cancer. ELF frequently "signs its name" on their "work". You can go ahead and primarily assume the builders did it to themselves to scam the insurance companies. I'm betting on the ELF terrorists; not a bunch of guys guys who build luxury homes and make a living on reputation (something ELF doesn't particularly care about, from what we've seen)
When the insurance companies deny liability, watch the trial lawyers line up to sue them. Gosh, it may be an itenerent trial lawyer who set the fires to generate a little business.
Posted by: Paddy on March 3, 2008 08:04 PMI have "earned" my toll status just like you have "earned" your racist status. Let me comment directly on point to the issue of hatred. There is a continum which allows people to justify evil acts like the Nazis who were able to rationalize that burning people up in ovens was a valient thing to do. This rationalization allows terrorists of all flavors to rationalize that their acts are for the common good. It begins with good old fashion hatred of anything and anyone that is different. It then proceeds to marginalization which allows some one like you to call Obama, not his policies, an "empty suit" even though he graduated from both Columbia and Harvard Law. Just to be fair, it allows the Cindy Sheehans of this world to call George Bush dumb even though he graduated from Harvard Business School, did she ever graduate from junior college, did you? Next step on the continuum is the total desensitization to what makes a person, human, so that it is OK to proceed to the next step of genocide like the Kurds, the Armenians, the Rawandans, Serbia and any number of conflicts around the world.
It begins with hatred and we can all be thankful that there wasn't a loss of life here, but it wouldn't have matter to a terrorist because all they do is hate. The builders or the architects were today's "emty suits" or trolls because they hate and it is all good for the cause, isn't it?
Haters proceed from marginalization, de-humanization and finally violence. They know no other way, because they hate, like you.
Posted by: WVH on March 3, 2008 09:32 PMAlso, why would these builders---who claimed to have built "green" houses---hire somebody to make fun of their attempts to build "Green"? Doesn't add up. Why would they try to do something they thought people wanted and then try to make it look like their homes weren't "green" with that ELF sign? Doesn't add up. The builders are less likely the culprit. ELF is more likely the culprit. (for those who think it's most likely the builders who damaged their own homes)
Posted by: Michele on March 3, 2008 10:07 PMMost people still cannot grasp the depravity of the environmental movement including the developers of these homes. They could not understand why these particular homes were targeted because they had gone to so much trouble to make them so "green". They haven't grasped that the ELF nihilists don't want anybody to live in nice homes no matter how green. If fact they don't want anyone to live at all.
One of the clueless developers complained that the ELF houseburners were being "selfish". Of course this is complete nonsense. This act was completely selfless in the worst possible sense. The ELF nihilists have no desires, no hopes, no mind and no self to be selfish about. These zombies whould have burned down these houses if they had been the last ones on earth and they could not have cared less that they would die of exposure shortly afterward.
Posted by: Bill K. on March 3, 2008 11:31 PMAt the MOMENT they prefer baby turtles to baby humans.
But within five or ten years each will have left the movement and be buying or selling real estate rather than burning it.
This comment comes from my experience with the Seattle Radicals of the late 60s.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on March 4, 2008 12:36 AMAnd, as for weapons of mass destruction...
Posted by: Independent Voter on March 4, 2008 05:20 AMELF is little more than the progressive agenda coming to it's logical conclusion: I don't have a house, so you shouldn't have a house- "I think I'll burn it". I don't drive an SUV, so you shouldn't have an SUV- "I think I'll torch it". Read Jonah Goldberg's book "Liberal Fascism" for an excellent breakdown of the reality of the Liberal "movement".
Posted by: Rick D. on March 4, 2008 07:05 AMThe stupid hippy chicks certainly lacked in smarts what they had in sincerity to their idiotic cause, I have never seen such gulibility in my life.
Posted by: JDH on March 4, 2008 07:17 AMI just point out racists when they appear. I noticed you didn't call any one an "empty suit" this time out, just troll. It must hurt to be outed as the racist you are. Speaking of warped worlds, what's the latest from David Duke? Care to share?
Posted by: WVH on March 4, 2008 07:30 AMI just point out racists when they appear..."
Posted by WVH at March 4, 2008 07:30 AM
You must do a lot of pointing in the mirror then, troll. Might I suggest upping your medication dosage?
I love pointing out that you are a racist, say hello to David Duke for me. I think I have made my point that your calling Obama an "empty suit" and me a troll is solely based upon our color, nothing else.
Now, on this particular issue of terrorism. Elf and groups like them are particularly dangerous because they are taking the form of Al Queda and Hamas like groups which is very decentralized and often with autonomous cells who really do have plausible deniability. Quite often there is no over all leader which allows them to morph and adapt.
To bring this discussion back to the state of education. We have in this country a secular progressive standard or moral relativity which means that there are no universals. So, the act of arson or even the possibility of taking a life, suppose there had been a guard is not universally wrong, but they look at the situation and what they think is to be accomplished. I imagine that in the value system of the terrorists there is no universal right or wrong, just situational ethics.
Posted by: WVH on March 4, 2008 08:08 AMNo further warning will be issued.
Posted by: pudge on March 4, 2008 08:14 AMNot into the logic very much, are you Michelle?
If it was an insurance scam arson, and I'm not saying I know, just that it's a possibility, then how am I excusing the ELF? That makes no sense, Michelle. If they didn't do it, they don't need an excuse. If they did, then string em up!
What's with the "red herrings"? Is that like some kind of Seattle sushi? I don't like that yuppie food, thank you very much.
I am sorry I brought it up now, but it is a possibility. If so, it was about the money. Nutcase ideology is one thing, but money is what makes the world go round.
Give it up.
Posted by: pudge on March 4, 2008 08:23 AMOn topic- Until the federal authorities start taking this domestic terrorism seriously, you'll continue to have these children setting fires to items that they, themselves could never attain in life. I hope the jury sends the little Eco-fascists a message by putting Briana Waters in prison for a nice extended stay. Somehow though, in this ignorant progressive stronghold of Seattle, I wouldn't be surprised at an acquittal. No wonder businesses like Boeing are leaving this area...the progressive mentallity is to have a knee jerk hatred of business and developers. Time to get out the old billboards asking the last person in Seattle to turn out the lights.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 4, 2008 08:41 AMAs a fire fighter myself. a fire investagator will look at these homes ands go from there.
The odds it was for insurance is a huge reach.
If you notice, the fire when from house to house way to fast. Good chance some type of fuel was used. And that can be proved.
ELF has also done this in San Diego.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on March 4, 2008 08:44 AMMy agenda is this that ALL people should be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. You have a problem with that?
Now, I do not need to use terms like "empty suit" or troll in order to communicate, you have a problem with that?
I have no problem with discussing eco-terrorism or any other topic for that matter. As for getting off topic, I don't know how long you have been posting here, but it is purely discretionary with the site gurus. The problem which has been discussed on other threads, not just this one is Stefan as the founder and owner of the site can do what he dang well pleases, but other than the public blog, where does one respond. I have no problem with Pudge making a decision to boot my comments, he, as site guru was well within his rights and I subsequently posted on Southern Roots' public blog post.
I believe there are some real policy differences among potential presidential candidates including the very real question of how they deal with terrorists, both domestic and international. I think that is a fair question that is meaty. What I don't think is fair is to call someone an epithet simply because of an immutable characterisitc. So, if you feel objecting on those grounds is an agenda, sobeit. I don't plan to vote for Hillary, if she is the nominee, but I think the republican party would make a serious mistake if they don't question her on the serious issue of terrorism and how she would differ or be better than Mc Cain. I think it would be a serious mistake to call her "empty suit" and other epithets. If you have questions about a candidate's positions on issues or policy focus on the issues and the policy. Give both the woman and Black candidate in this race the respect of at least going after them on the issues and forcing each to explain their position on the issues. Use of an epithet, while some feel it is fair will not make your case that you feel that either Hillary or Obama is weak on the issues. To get back to the topic of this thread, questioning both on whether they feel terrorism is a separate category or simply a criminal act is a real discusssion of a policy issue.
Posted by: WVH on March 4, 2008 09:44 AMPosted by WVH at March 4, 2008 09:44 AM
No. You use the terms "Bigot" and "Racist" to describe anyone that chooses not to back your candidate Barack Fauxbama. Fauxbama probably supports the ELF people as he has close ties to Weather Underground Terrorist William Ayers and had to kiss his (Ayers) ring when Fauxbama was getting into Illinois politics. ELF and the Weather Underground are ideologically aligned entities with two different goals, but the method remains the same. Barack Fauxbama's ties to Williams Ayers and thus a domestic terror group gives more than ample reason to denounce his candidacy......one built on false hope, empty rhetoric and misguided philosophies.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 4, 2008 10:04 AMI would be very surprised if ANY politician supports ELF or any other terrorist group. What is your proof for this assertion:
' Fauxbama probably supports the ELF people"
Now provide proof of the statement or shut-up, already.
Posted by: WVH on March 4, 2008 10:20 AMThe P-I today called Brianna Waters, accused of participating in the ELF UW firebombing a "violin teacher". The P-I also called Tre Arrow, accused of conspiracy and arson charges an "environmentalist".
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 4, 2008 10:32 AMAnd Pudge, read my posts, dude. Spend time reading them, and you will see your comment makes no sense.
#76 "Sorry, Dave, but it's just not likely that four (or however many) different builders just decided at the same time they'd not rowse too much suspicion on themselves by doing this. It would be beyond stupid and just too coincidental. In order for them to stay in business they have to be able to get construction insurance. A fraud conviction would pretty much end their construction careers.
It's just not likely.
What is most likely is that ELF burned the homes."
Then I posted that anyway that it is a possibility. See.
Pudge, you are not the brightest bulb on this site.
Posted by: Dave Lincoln on March 4, 2008 10:50 AMSend the $100 bet to Union Gospel Mission. I would not call you racist, I would call you ignorant of what it takes to be a Christian. It is a profession of the faith and baptism into the faith.
So, do you have any proof that Obama has not met those requirements? God judges the heart, not us.
Your $100 will help a lot of people, so send it soon because your ignorance does not rise to the level of Rick D's epithets.
Posted by: WVH on March 4, 2008 10:53 AMNow provide proof of the statement or shut-up, already.
Posted by WVH at March 4, 2008 10:20 AM
I addressed Sen. Fauxbama's ties to domestic terrorist William Ayers and the Weather Underground in my post @ 102....now, try reading it with your open eyes rather than your blind hatred, you may actually make the connection.
And who made you the decider of who's a Christian or not in post 107? You are the last model of Christian-like behavior I could point to on this site.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 4, 2008 11:03 AMIt is not impossible, it should not be ruled out, but it is very unlikely."
Why in the heck would you do the investigations in series? I'm no Stebe McGarrett, but you go with the leads you have.
Again, I'm sorry I brought it up. I am not maligning any builders, but it sure is the right economy to do something like this in.
One more thing: Michelle wrote:
"In order for them to stay in business they have to be able to get construction insurance. A fraud conviction would pretty much end their construction careers."
Well, I guess nobody does crime with the certainty that they will be caught as part of their plan, unless they are one of these devious dudes in the movies. i.e. Someone who does this will not be worried about their insurance, as the plan is not to get caught, right? Yes, a fraud conviction would end their construction careers.
Also, a murder by OJ Simpson would end his career of running through airports to catch Hertz rent-a--cars? Oh, he got away with it, oops. What, he was a football player before the Hertz thing? What, Paul McCartney was in a famous band before? Oh, yeah, Wings, I forgot.
In the remote chance that this particular incident isn't ELF, they've made themselves a target by conducting such acts 100's of times in the past 10 years or so in this region.
Would Ted Bundy be any less of a murdering psycho if it was found he didn't commit one of series of murder's he was accused and found guilty of? Not likely right? Same rule applies here.
Why in the heck would you do the investigations in series?
I never said it should be done in series. My implication was not to do only one thing at a time. My implication is that as there is absolutely no evidence supporting an insurance fraud scam, it is a waste of time to bother investigating it, until you run out of any other options to investigate.
I'm no Stebe McGarrett, but you go with the leads you have.
Exactly: there are no leads on any insurance fraud scam. The possibility of it is pure supposition by people who are not involved at all with the case. There is no reason any of us know of to waste government money investigating it, when there are actual leads to investigate.
Posted by: pudge on March 4, 2008 11:32 AMYou have not provided specific links to Senator Obama and ELF. Provide those or shut-up.
You said:
"And who made you the decider of who's a Christian or not in post 107? You are the last model of Christian-like behavior I could point to on this site."
No wonder you didn't get into Columbia or Harvard, you can't read. Still jealous of a Black man with an education, are we?
Now this is want I said:
"Send the $100 bet to Union Gospel Mission. I would not call you racist, I would call you ignorant of what it takes to be a Christian. It is a profession of the faith and baptism into the faith.
So, do you have any proof that Obama has not met those requirements? God judges the heart, not us.
From the Southern Baptist Convention:
http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp
From a general site:
http://christianity.about.com/od/newchristians/p/becomechristian.htm
From the Pope:
http://www.ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=2867&AFID=12
Your hatred of all Black people has blinded you to the fact that at its core Christianity is a profession of faith with baptism. Unless you can prove differently, the United Church of Christ is a recognized Christian denomination and if Obama is in good standing with his denomination, he is a Christian. Do you have proof otherwise. So, have Dopio sent his check, hope that it is good to the Union Gospel Mission.
You are simply a hater.
Just great Dave.L.
That stupid comment shows us all how dumb you are.
Insults are the first sign of a person who can't win.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on March 4, 2008 12:28 PMAnd JDH was right about the motivation for male side of radicalism.
Optimism about getting naked time with women after the protest. That's how it was with our local radicals in the "glory days" on the UW campus in the 60s and 70s. I was hoping for ANY kind of stray. Some girl not even involved in the movement, but just happening into the Ave's Century Tavern by mistake.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on March 4, 2008 01:52 PM...if I can't read, how is that I can point out that you can't spell a simple 4 letter word with 2 out of 4 of the letters identical...and you're an acclaimed doctorate holder? Please!
But wait, there's more illiteracy-
"So, have Dopio sent(sic) his check, hope that it is good to the Union Gospel Mission."
Posted by WVH at March 4, 2008 12:01 PM
...Oops, yet another typo by the vast intellect of WVH. Doctorate or GED? You make the call.
Cheers!
Let me clu ya in on the female side of the equation, they are bunny boilers - almost every damn one of them has had protection orders filed against them by someone they were once involved with romantically.
Posted by: JDH on March 4, 2008 02:47 PMI figured it's OK to put opinions on here. Some of you just can't argue logically, so this is getting tiresome.
Pudge says: "Exactly: there are no leads on any insurance fraud scam. The possibility of it is pure supposition by people who are not involved at all with the case. There is no reason any of us know of to waste government money investigating it, when there are actual leads to investigate."
Now, if you are connected to this case in some way, why don't you say - you may, in that case, know more. You didn't say that, and I assume you don't know any more than ther rest of us about it. The insurance company will investigate the leads, and I'm sure they are good at it. One of the leads may be different from the ELF one. Anyone can spraypaint a enviro-wacko slogan.
Then we get: "But there is no reason to bother investigating it, either, unless the ELF leads don't pan out."
Next post says: "I never said it should be done in series. My implication was not to do only one thing at a time. "
So, first you wait to see if ELF leads don't pan out, and then you start investigating other things - but, that is not "in series".
Hey, Pudge I don't want you touching any of my home wiring, if you don't know the difference between series and parallel. I would have to up my insurance.
Dufus.
Posted by: Dave Lincoln on March 4, 2008 05:48 PMUm. I never implied otherwise. YOU are the one implying otherwise. Please. Think.
So, first you wait to see if ELF leads don't pan out
No. You are not thinking. I have been saying all along: follow any leads. There are, as far as any of us know, NO LEADS having ANYTHING TO DO with any insurance scams, so we have NO REASON to think there should be any investigations of any such things.
You are the one saying otherwise. And you have no justification for saying it.
Hey, Pudge I don't want you touching any of my home wiring, if you don't know the difference between series and parallel.
I do know the difference. The problem is you can't comprehend when people say very simple and straightforward things.
Posted by: pudge on March 4, 2008 07:40 PMAll you can point to are typos, really. Now, I know that you are a loyal American who loves this country. You said this:
" Fauxbama probably supports the ELF people"
I think that if you have proof that Senator Obama supports a terrorist group, you should do the following:
1. Call the local office of the FBI with your proof. Their number is:
FBI Seattle
1110 Third Avenue
Seattle, Washington 98101-2904
seattle.fbi.gov
(206) 622-0460
2. Obama has had Secret Service protection for the past few months. Obviously, they are not up to snuff since he is an active member of ELF and responsible for burning down houses in Woodinville, so you need to report his Secret Service detail for malfeasance, unfeasance , and every other kind of feasance, their number is:
FCIC National Contact Center - Federal Telephone DirectoriesFrequently Requested Toll-Free Telephone Numbers ... 912-267-2100 - Secret Service (Public Affairs) 202-406-5708 ... U.S. Secret Service 202-406-8000 ...
www.info.gov/phone.htm
Since you have personal knowledge that Obama is an ELF terrorist, you should bust em Danno.
You know that I can't help you on this as I am overeducated and can't type or spell, but I know that you are the man to put this presidential candidate and terrorist in the slammer. Knock yourself out, dude.
Posted by: WVH on March 4, 2008 10:36 PMIf you can't understand it because you are "overeducated", which is on its face a laughable argument, I can't help you to understand it.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 5, 2008 06:03 AMI simply wanted to point out how dumb the link was. This quote which was attributed to Winston Churchill pretty much explains things:
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
According to research by Mark T. Shirey, citing Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings, and Familiar Misquotations by Ralph Keyes, 1992, this quote was first uttered by mid-nineteenth century historian and statesman François Guizot when he observed...."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
What you will find is that many of the young when attending universities will have ideas and do research at a point in their life that may or may not represent their values later on. I understand that Senator Clinton was at one time a "Goldwater Girl" who supported Barry Goldwater. What a difference a few years makes. People are much better off sticking to what their stands or associations are currently. What you will find is that all dem candidates who have a chance of emerging from the primary system will share similar philosophies, no matter what philosophical path led them to this point. That is the issue.
Posted by: WVH on March 5, 2008 09:56 AMhttp://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112
...but don't let this fact get in the way of a false quote if it helps you sleep at night.
The link between the two groups was more than valid, you just didn't like the association with your candidate B.O.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 5, 2008 10:13 AMSpeaking of dumb, you can't read and that is why you didn't get into either Columbia or Harvard like Obama. This is what I said in the post #123 directly above. Your hatred blinds you to just about everything doesn't it?
123. Rick D.,
I simply wanted to point out how dumb the link was. This quote which was attributed to Winston Churchill pretty much explains things:
"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
According to research by Mark T. Shirey, citing Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings, and Familiar Misquotations by Ralph Keyes, 1992, this quote was first uttered by mid-nineteenth century historian and statesman François Guizot when he observed...."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
1. I said it was attributed to Winston Churchill.
2. I put in the full reference to Mark Shirley.
You didn't get into an elite school because of affirmative action and neither did Obama. He had an excellent private school education in Hawaii because his grandparents were able to afford it.
Because you hate and it is purely hate on your part, your venom does not allow you to do a simple thing like READ a full passage or LISTEN to comments made by anyone different. Hate does not destroy the object of your hate, it destroys you slowly and ultimately kills you.
Posted by: WVH on March 6, 2008 10:23 AMQ: Do you adhere to a "Black Values system" as espoused by your mentor/pastor Jeremiah Wright and the Trinity United Church of Christ to which you belong, or do you adhere to a "Christian Values system"?
Posted by: Rick D. on March 6, 2008 03:53 PM"This quote which was attributed to Winston Churchill pretty much explains things:'If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.' "
Posted by WVH at March 5, 2008 09:56 AM
Just when I think you can't get any dumber or post anymore ignorant half assed posts, you shock me by doing just that. You are an SP troll and lack the intelligence to hold a valid debate without calling out the race card. I hope you one day get a life.
Cheers!
"According to research by Mark T. Shirey, citing Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings, and Familiar Misquotations by Ralph Keyes, 1992, this quote was first uttered by mid-nineteenth century historian and statesman François Guizot when he observed...."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
You are the one who is dumb as brick. So, to make up for your lack of smarts you have the nerve to call Obama an empty suit. Hatred rots your brain and you are exhibit A.
Now, your question about asking Senator Obama about a Black values system is actually a fair question. I asked the Paul people about Dr. Paul's association with David Duke. If the actual
question you are trying to formulate is how can any leader who promises to uphold the Constitution and represent all people have a philosophy that is exclusionary? You may have actually stumbled upon an issue. By the way, I expect that Senator Obama will do better in his response than Dr. Paul and if he doesn't I will join you in roundly condemning him on the issue, just as I have done with Dr. Paul.
That's okay, I didn't expect a forthright, honest answer anyway. You never disappoint.
Posted by: Rick D. on March 7, 2008 09:03 AM