Reading the latest in the ongoing snafu-fest that is the Washington State Ferry System, I'm left to wonder again why it is that state government isn't willing to solicit bids from outside the state. Hometown jobs are nice, but a rush project is a rush project. Get it going already.
Posted by Eric Earling at April 03, 2008 07:10 PM | Email ThisAt this point I'm very comfortable saying that your vision of "Republican ideals" is a little unique. Thus, your ardent support for Ron Paul, who let's face it, was not a serious candidate within the Republican party (other than his capacity to raise money online).
Posted by: Eric Earling on April 3, 2008 09:16 PMI do agree with making first round bidding in state only. If in-state bids won't meet requirements, then go out of state.
Posted by: pbj on April 3, 2008 09:26 PMDon't expect the price to be lower unless they cut a lot of things from the plans...Steel prices when up first of April an will be going up again June or July...we are looking at 10 to 20 percent increase each time.
Posted by: Glenno on April 3, 2008 09:51 PMForget about my version of republican ideals, lets talk about yours... Free market competition is not a republican ideal in your book?
Posted by: Lysander on April 4, 2008 04:14 AMhere are some relavent excerpts from the KC GOP platform.
We believe that free enterprise is the foundation of our country's economic system.
We believe economic
opportunity is best achieved by:
- Reducing excessive regulation on businesses in Washington State
- Ensuring that our state transportation policies consider the needs of commercial traffic, which depend on our roads, rails, ports and waterways for conducting business;
-Promoting policies that facilitate the success of small business, which is the growth
engine of the American economy.
It sure seems to me that my idea to end regulations that prevent private competion in the ferry service is a republican ideal based on the above portions of the platform. So i am a bit baffled why you think my idea of what republican ideals are is somehow unique.
It also seems that my idea to end government ownership of arenas and ending taxes on restaruants, hotels, and taxis would be very much in tune with the KC GOP plank to promote policies that facilitate the success of small business. So again, my idea of what republican ideals are seem to be in tune with the KC GOP platform. Your ideas seem to be in tune with Rossis but not the GOP.
Posted by: Lysander on April 4, 2008 06:09 AMThat is why I am not a Libertarian- they don't seems to have a grasp of the real world. I would hate to see their version of the world exist.
If you went out of state to build the ships, where would you go? Anyplace that has the population to build ships will have outrageous unions making the cost to construct exorbitant. And we can't forget that the Democrats in this country have destroyed manufacturing with their fascist (hey, I used Eric's term from above) views on the environment which prevents our country from competing in the world market and for the fascist views of the environment and global warming which prevents us from building new refineries and drilling for more oil and thusly keeping the price of oil down.
Posted by: swatter on April 4, 2008 07:37 AMI do think however, that it is good for the State to give priority to state industries. First off, we do need to keep capabilities close by for emergent repairs. You aren't going to ship a Ferry to Japan or Korea to get it repaired (i.e., cost of transporting and time out of service cost factors). Second, it does provide a return to the state coffers through the wages of the employees.
I think this is one area where the state and the federal government do need to work together. It is important from an military strength argument to have solid, experienced west coast shipbuilding personnel available for emergent repairs to Navy Ships. The private sector comes into play with emergent non-nuclear workload (since there is no certified private nuclear shipyard on the West Coast or in Hawaii, only EB in Groton, CT, and Newport News, in Norfolk, are certified on East Coast). The way you keep the industry available is through the other jobs, like Ferry work. Most Cruise Line and Sea-bearing Cargo maintenace and shipbuilding work is done overseas (Korea being a major player these days due to their cost for steel). The Mississipi Coast region has some shipyards, but these may decline now that Trent Lott is no longer in the Senate directing pork their way, even when not even requested by the Navy.
Just my thoughts.
Posted by: tc on April 4, 2008 09:21 AMThe luxury yacht business has all gone to China. Perhaps we need to see what they will bid on the boat as a last resort. I would open a round of bidding up to the entire country. Then if we can't get a good deal then open it up internationally. There are a lot of firms around the world building boats.
Posted by: pbj on April 4, 2008 11:47 AMA line of questioning one might want to follow is what aspects of the vessel did the State change that influenced the cost increases over that of the original design.
Posted by: sdw on April 4, 2008 02:33 PMWow, the Dem's did something right in PBJ's mind. That's a 1st. =P
I do agree with making first round bidding in state only. If in-state bids won't meet requirements, then go out of state.
And deprive Washington workers the chance to have valuable well paying jobs during this time of economic slowdown?
Then if we can't get a good deal then open it up internationally.
PBJ - Proud supporter of cheap lead painted Ferry Boats made in China.
What is it with you PBJ, first it was supporting China to make US Flag Lapel Pins, now it's shipping out fine American made Ferry production lines overseas. Tell us PBJ why do you hate American workers so much?
A broken clock is right twice a day. Unlike you I am not a partisan hack that has to oppose someone because of the letter in front of their name.
"And deprive Washington workers the chance to have valuable well paying jobs during this time of economic slowdown?"
Well they are screwed because you liberals are going to tax their grocery bags and takeout containers. So if you really want to help them out, stop taking their money.
And if there is only one company bidding and they are twice the cost, would you have the state pay the exhorbitant cost? OR do you just like being a pain in the ass sitting in your momma's basement doing the weed?
"PBJ - Proud supporter of cheap lead painted Ferry Boats made in China."
Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. That computer you are typing on is probably made in China. I guess you are a proud supporter of Chinese stuff too.
"What is it with you PBJ, first it was supporting China to make US Flag Lapel Pins, now it's shipping out fine American made Ferry production lines overseas. Tell us PBJ why do you hate American workers so much?"
Bullshit. My lapel pin is made in the USA. Once again you employ the Obama maneuver (CHANGE the subject and HOPE no one notices).
Al Gore got campaign money from the Chinese Military. You never seemed to complain about that? Cato- undermining America's military and her workers by supporting the sale of military secrets to China in exchange for campaign bribes to Democrats.
Posted by: pbj on April 4, 2008 05:25 PMYou clearly stated at #14m. You support taking jobs away from Washington and American workers and putting them in places cheap like China. Tell us why you feel that American ferry boats somehow inferior to the cheap Chinese made Ferry's adorned with lead based paint?
Bullshit. My lapel pin is made in the USA.
I bet, more likely it's covered in lead based paint because it's a cheap Chinese made knockoff.
Al Gore got campaign money from the Chinese Military
Changing the subject to avoid discussing your fraudulent American patriotism are we? Tell us PBJ, why do you hate American workers so much that you would want to ship their jobs overseas to places like China?
I support the state not paying over twice what the damn thing should cost. By doing that, the state won't have to increase taxes and confiscate money from other workers to pay too much for that boat. Do you really think the excess money for that boat will go to the workers and not the executives???
So basically you are all for confiscating tax monies from workers in order to pay fat bonuses to the executives as Todd Shipyards. Why is it you hate the worker so much you are willing to confiscate his wages to give to the fat cats?
"I bet, more likely it's covered in lead based paint because it's a cheap Chinese made knockoff."
Once again you haven't a clue what you are talking about. You have never seen my specific flag pin. All you are going by are your stereotypes.
"Tell us PBJ, why do you hate American workers so much that you would want to ship their jobs overseas to places like China?
Posted by Cato"
I don't hate the American workers. I simply feel that for all the money the Goracle got trading military secrets to China that we ought to get more in return. Saving the state money on the ferry will mean less taxes out of the American worker's pocket to pay for the ferry. But that is until the Democrats tax his bag to carry his groceries and his takeout containters.
Tell us Cato, why do you hate the American worker so much you that you would want to tax their bags and takeout containers? Are you really that determined that they don't get to eat?
That's not what you said at #14, you said you would support outsourcing the contract to foreign nationals who could likely undermine the security and safety of the Washington sate Ferry System. Lead paint, leaked blueprints to alQueda, cheap prison labor...all security threats if you send those jobs overseas.
So tell us again PBJ, why do you want to undermine the safety and security of US citizens while taking away their jobs?
All you are going by are your stereotypes.
Where did you get your quasi-patriotic lapel pin. at the "Made in the USA" store or at the local Bartell Drugs? Maybe you got it at Wal-Mart, they're a reputable company that would never import cheap knockoff products from China.
I simply feel that for all the money the Goracle got trading military secrets to China that we ought to get more in return.
Changing the subject again...funny how that happens every time you go and betray the American worker by shipping his job to China.
Saving the state money on the ferry will mean less taxes out of the American worker's pocket to pay for the ferry.
So screwing hard-working American craftsman out of income thee can use to feed their family with is acceptable to you as long as we save a few bucks? That makes no sense at all. We want those Americans to have jobs so they can generate revenue which creates more jobs. I guess your American patriotism is more of a show than a reality. PBJ - Economic Terrorist.
Tell us Cato, why do you hate the American worker so much you that you would want to tax their bags and takeout containers?
I'm sorry I thought this thread was about the Ferry's and your lack of faith in American workers to perform complex tasks. Why are you trying to change the subject?
BULLSHIT! Here is what I said at 14:
The luxury yacht business has all gone to China. Perhaps we need to see what they will bid on the boat as a last resort. I would open a round of bidding up to the entire country. Then if we can't get a good deal then open it up internationally. There are a lot of firms around the world building boats.
Internationally does not equal CHINA. I know that in yours and Gore's minds it might, but believe it or not Germany, and the UK among others, also build great boats. If I meant to only get bids from China, I'd have said so. Once again, your straw man goes POOF in a puff of smoke.
"Where did you get your quasi-patriotic lapel pin. at the "Made in the USA" store or at the local Bartell Drugs? Maybe you got it at Wal-Mart, they're a reputable company that would never import cheap knockoff products from China."
I don't need to answer an interrogation from a cowardly traitor who hides in momma's basement doing the weed. It is none of your business where I got it. It isn't available to the general public as it is a custom made piece of jewelry.
"Changing the subject again...funny how that happens every time you go and betray the American worker by shipping his job to China."
You need to talk to Gore, who sold our secrets to China for some campaign contributions. Now he is working to cripple the American economy with phoney AGW. Why do you want to kill the AMerican economy and put everyone out of work Cato? Please tell us.
So screwing hard-working American craftsman out of income thee can use to feed their family with is acceptable to you as long as we save a few bucks? That makes no sense at all. We want those Americans to have jobs so they can generate revenue which creates more jobs. I guess your American patriotism is more of a show than a reality. PBJ - Economic Terrorist.
Why is it you think Americans are too dumb to compete in the global economy? I bet you are rooting for CHina as your Goracle did when he was VP. CATO- just a terrorist.
"I'm sorry I thought this thread was about the Ferry's and your lack of faith in American workers to perform complex tasks. Why are you trying to change the subject?"
It isn't me that doesn't have faith in them. You are the one that is afraid to let them compete for the contract. You want protecitonist policies because you think they are all a bunch of rubes that cannot compete on the world stage. Cato- why do you have such a low opinion of the American worker?
Posted by: pbj on April 4, 2008 11:54 PMJust keep up the loon enviromental requirements and it just wont be Boeing and shipbuilding bailing out of the Soviet of Washington.
Just keep up the ongoing circle jerk: overpaid union members (state employees, state contracts) with large union dues going into campaign contributions to brain dead politicians to spend twice as much on built in state ferries. All the while us taxpayers get screwed blue.
What is it going to take to bring WSDOT into the real world?
-a sunk ferry with 200 dead?
-a Viaduct collapse?
-a 520 bridge sinking?
-Dino Rossi election and the immediate firing of every single non union admin person in WSDOT?
In the meantime, lets keep electing morons like M M Hagen (empty Amtrak station cheerleader), Helen Somers, Oemig, the list is depressingly long......
Posted by: Hank on April 5, 2008 05:25 AMBy the way, when if comes to buying big stuff like say ships, fire engines, tractors. the price has a lot to do with how many you order (wow Costco idea) So stop flipping out about the price, they will hash this out and come down to a real number. The paper is making this noise, just to make noise
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 5, 2008 07:26 AM"It isn't me that doesn't have faith in them. You are the one that is afraid to let them compete for the contract. You want protecitonist policies because you think they are all a bunch of rubes that cannot compete on the world stage."
I don't want to get between you and Cato, but I am just curious. How do you expect the American worker to compete when the playing field isn't level? Are you suggesting that the American worker lower his/her standard of living to that of individuals living in third world countries? Are you suggesting that American boat builders hire illegal aliens, who don't mind living 20 to a room, to be competitive? That sure as hell wouldn't be looking out for the American worker. How would you work this out?
Posted by: NW_Denizen on April 6, 2008 08:39 AMLet me ask you a question. Is that computer on which you are typing made in America? Why not? Why didn't you buy an American made computer with all American made components? You think it is fine for computer makers to go out of business and move overseas because YOU want a cheap computer?
But now the ax comes around to the boat building industry, you throw a fit. Perhaps you or your relatives work in boat building I suspect.
Posted by: pbj on April 6, 2008 01:15 PMYoung people today apparently don't want to go into the field. So I don't think it is a matter of lowering wages. Apparently there is plenty of work and not enough workers.
It appears the main reason the new boat is so expensive then is that the state must rush the job because they delayed beginning the replacement of the steel electrics even when there was money in the budget long ago specifically for that purpose.
Will these Ferries ever in your wildest dream be built for even double or triple what Gregoire says, using UNION LABOR?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAAYYYYY!
Remember Brightwater? She takes afte Ron Sims and his Dumbwater three times over budget mode of operations.
Do you think 520 with six lanes will be rebuild for 4 Billion? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That's a real HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Ho Ho Ho
And in ending
Have you noticed that I167 was suppose to have transponders in the Car Pool lane to allow an extra money grab for those that wanted to Pay Extra to ride in for the Car Poll lanes?
Well think again, they are planning for more...
I drive 167 every day, and I noticed that their transponder's are not just in the Carpool lanes, but also they installed a second set in the middle lane next to the carpool lane, and their overhead platform extends over all three lanes of 167.
Their plan although they are not saying it, is to Toll your every freeway movement on I67, and I suspect beyond.
Did they say this, NO, but these liberals are installing thism and planning it, and have spent your tax dollars putting in two to three lanes of transponders in instead of just the carpool lanes that you were told about.
I'll never put a transponder on my car. This DOT will be like kids with a debit card in a candy store. Just drive around any transponders you can and make their investments NULL!
Posted by: GS on April 6, 2008 08:53 PMHUH! How do you come to the conclusion that I am throwing a fit? You don't know me from Adam. I asked you a simple question. Can you not anwers it in a civil manner?
Posted by: NW Denizen on April 7, 2008 09:53 AMHe's also quite the dim bulb when it comes to making a somewhat cohesive argument. I find it highly amusing to watch him constantly stick his foot in his mouth.
This coming from a yellow belly coward living in his momma's basement. You are probably one of liberal James Ujama's terorist buddies. Did you dance and hand out sweets on 911 like the Palestinians? Probably.
Posted by: pbj on April 7, 2008 12:03 PMROFL, that the best you can come up with?
You already admitted on this very thread you'd sell out the livelihoods of hard working Americans. Those quality Americans who would jump at the chance to build quality Ferries if it would keep food on their tables. Face it PBJ, you are nothing but a modern day Benedict Arnold.
I reject those choices (lower standard of living or hire illegals). Certainly there are some who are clearly overpaid for their skills on the global economy as they have artifically inflated wages due simply to their union membership. $40K per year for a WSF ticket taker? Give me a break!!! Such an overpaid glutton NEEDS to have his living standard cut. Have you ever seen those slobs that work for WSF? I wouldn't hire them to weed my garden let alone run a ferry system.
I work in software development and have seen a sharp increase in the number of Indian developers brought in. If you want an example of this, go to the Metropolitan North Building around lunchtime. And who is hiring these foreign workers? Walmart, K-Mart?? Nope. It is none other than Nordstrom's. That's right, Nordy's. I always enjoy pointing this out to liberals who like to shop there because they think they are getting something American made and protecting American jobs. It makes them "feeeeeel good". The blank look on their faces when they hear what Nordy's really does is priceless.
The fact is under Clinton the H1B visa program was expanded. So much for liberals caring about the American worker.
Am I bothered by it? Nope. I can compete with the best of them and can match them on skill, experience, education and productivity. I have no sympathy for a guy makes $30/hr popping rivets all day for 30 years and when the global economy catches up to him whines he has no other skills. Whose fault was it he dropped out of school and is incapable of becoming educated? We are in a global economy, and whining isn't going to help you out.
They would jump? Bwahahahahahaha. Give me a break.
Well apparently they weren't jumping too much because they wanted twice the asking price.
Face it PBJ, you are nothing but a modern day Benedict Arnold."
This from a guy who belongs to the party of traitor and illegal wiretapper Baghdad Jim who never met an emey of America he didn't love. Did you get some of Saddam's money too?
Face it Cato, you are just another pathetic little John Walker Lindh, ready to undermine your country's national security at the drop of the hat.
Materials are twice as expensive as they used to be thanks to dollar deflation and the resulting price inflation.
This from a guy who belongs to the party of traitor and illegal wiretapper Baghdad Jim who never met an emey of America he didn't love.
I'm a patriotic American and card carrying member of the NRA. How about you? You sound more like the village idiot yapping his mouth about things he could not possibly understand.
Since you can't be bothered to learn basic arithmetic, maybe you should learn how to spell. "emey of America"? =P
So you are saying the imcompetant Democrat estimators couldn't figure this out?
"I'm a patriotic American and card carrying member of the NRA. How about you? You sound more like the village idiot yapping his mouth about things he could not possibly understand."
So patriotic that when your country's call of service came you were nowhere to be found.
"Since you can't be bothered to learn basic arithmetic, maybe you should learn how to spell. "emey of America"? =P"
I am trying to type in "Cato-bonics" the bastardized language of the dopehead baby that never left his mother's basement in order to allow you to comprehend.
Obviously you never learned proper use of capitalization. "... jump at the chance to build quality Ferries... "??? =P
Posted by: pbj on April 7, 2008 02:59 PMI must have been out when they called, did they leave a message? Cleaning up s**t in the Army hardly makes you a true American. A true American doesn't suggest exporting hard-working American jobs overseas during a recession.
I am trying to type in "Cato-bonics"
YOU RACIST!! =P
Obviously you never learned proper use of capitalization.
At least I can spell and do math. I'm surprised you even know how to type and hit the post button. The Army teach you that in the free spot between your latrine cleaning shifts?
Secondly, anyone who's progressed beyond labor union talking points recognizes that exporting SOME jobs creates the wealth that allows foreign countries to buy little things like, oh, I don't know -- airplanes and software, not to mention a plethora of other products produced in the U.S.
Posted by: JustAnotherVoter on April 7, 2008 05:18 PM"I reject those choices (lower standard of living or hire illegals)."
The issue was about American workers competing in a global market. While I might agree with you on the ticket taker issue, we are not talking about ticket takers. We are talking about shipyard workers. If you reject those choices, then what is your solution to keeping these jobs here? Please tell me how, even if shipyard workers were paid minimum wage, could those workers compete with foreign workers being paid thirty cents a day?
"I work in software development and have seen a sharp increase in the number of Indian developers brought in."
Congratulations! Apparently, your employer hasn't hired an Indian developer who is willing to work at a fraction of what you make to replace you on the basis that you aren't "qualified". Yet. If that ever happens, don't be surprised if your employer then demands that you "train" your "superior" Indian replacement or you will be denied unemployment insurance. No whining either.
Anyone who thinks Nordstrom cares about American jobs is delusional.
"The fact is under Clinton the H1B visa program was expanded. So much for liberals caring about the American worker."
Yep, and you can add Jay Inslee and Jim McDermott to the list.
" I can compete with the best of them and can match them on skill, experience, education and productivity."
How about salary? I have seen software development available on the Internet for as little as $2.00 per hour. Can you match that?
"I have no sympathy for a guy makes $30/hr popping rivets all day for 30 years and when the global economy catches up to him whines he has no other skills."
Is that all you think blue collar workers do? Ever tried to pass a welding certification? Do you have any idea how much training and experience if takes to become a master machinist? I started out working on the docks supervising longshore crews back in the mid sixties. You could not get me to do that kind of work for $100/hr, and not because I think I am smarter, or better than that, or can't stand getting my hands dirty. Sure, it is often unskilled labor, but is strenuous, and often times extremely dangerous. I was working a container ship one time when a man was killed when he mistakenly walked under a hanging cargo container and the cable snapped. Try climbing down into the hold of a grain ship loaded with alfalfa pellets while a trimming operation is going on. You have to wear a respirator, and you still come out spitting alfalfa dust for a week. Someone has to perform that work. Who is it going to be? You? Not me, that's for sure. Oh, sorry, we were talking shipyard workers. Well, I've never worked in a shipyard, but I have two brothers in-law and a close friend who have. Two of them are permanently disabled from broken backs suffered on the job, and one died from asbestos related lung cancer. No sympathy, huh? Good for you. You should be proud of yourself. If these guys were paid $30/hr, they were getting screwed.
"Whose fault was it he dropped out of school and is incapable of becoming educated?"
What? One of my brothers in law retrained and became a paralegal. I moved up into the agency end of the shipping business and then retrained at age 52 for the information technology field because I was bored. I have been successfully employed in IT for over ten years. Another fellow I know worked in steel fabrication for years until his hands gave out and he had to undergo carpal tunnel surgery. He has a four-year degree in animal science, an associate in police science, an associate in computer science, and an impressive list of IT certifications. He now works as a network administrator.
It seems that many so called "educated" people, even though they often haven't the common sense to pour piss out of a boot, think their sh*t doesn't stink. A good friend of mine who ran a successful multi million-dollar contact lens lab couldn't read, but managed to graduate from high school anyway. He had dyslexia and was blind in one eye. He refused to even interview college graduates after awhile because he got sick of the snotty, arrogant attitudes. He started in business by sweeping out the lens lab after school and on weekends for $1.65/hr, and he was put off by college punks with no worldly experience demanding big money and to start at the top. He used to talk about his brother in law who had an IQ of 165, several degrees, and the ability to play seven musical instruments, but could not hold down a job of any kind. "Bring me a kid with average intelligence and some gumshun", he used to say.
Ah, I digress...it's time to go work on my P-51.
Form what I read, shipyard workers are making way more than minimum wage and are in demand. And they compete by putting out a higher quality, more reliable, better engineered product.
Back in the 1970's detroit put our crap as fast as they could. My dad bought a brand new Chevy Suburban that blew a transmission after 12K miles because the idiot union worker put a gasket on backwards. My brother bought a brans new Chevy pickup in the 1980's and after 5 years the paint started to fall off and he had mechanical problems, Chevy wouldn't stand by it. In 2002 I bought a Dodge Ram pickup. It came from the factory with a bad steering column that had to be rebuilt at the dealers expense. In 2004, after one of my religious trips to the dealer to have only them change the oil, they gave me back the truck with NO OIL in it. I didn't know this is what was wrong, I started it and th light came on. I turned it off and told the service manager. He sighed and walked out as if he immediately knew what it was. He checked the dip stick and it was dry. He apologized and said they would fill it. The shop kid started the truck and drove it back into the damn repair bay! I need to pay $65/hr for that crap service? Oh yes it is a real "specialized" skill indeed! Hell I bet an illegal immigrant will remove the drain plug and give it back dry for probably 50 cents an hour.
Oh and then there is my cousin who, for some dumb reason is loyal to Chevy. Never mind that on his brand new 2004 pickup 6 months after he purchased it, the dealer had to rebuild the entire front end at a parts and labor cost (to the dealer) of over $16K.
My 2003 Minnesota built Ski boat, purchased brand new has had over $8,000 of warranty work done on it since then. The outdrive had to be replaced because of a bad prop seal install from the factory. Then engine had to be pulled because the steering RAM went out.
"Congratulations! Apparently, your employer hasn't hired an Indian developer who is willing to work at a fraction of what you make to replace you on the basis that you aren't "qualified". Yet. If that ever happens, don't be surprised if your employer then demands that you "train" your "superior" Indian replacement or you will be denied unemployment insurance. No whining either."
Won't happen. They already tried outsourcing work directly to India. They work was so poor and unusable and the language barrier hurdle so high, that in house developers had to redo all that work.
"Anyone who thinks Nordstrom cares about American jobs is delusional."
I agree. You'd be surprised how many liberals shop there though.
"How about salary? I have seen software development available on the Internet for as little as $2.00 per hour. Can you match that?"
I wouldn't bother. Anyone looking to spend $2.00/hour for the kind of work I do is delusional and when he brings me the crap the $2/hr guy did and it is crap, I will charge him 5 times what I normally would to fix it. Software development is not just writing code. That is the very least of it and most likely only what the $2/hr guy is getting paid to do.
"Is that all you think blue collar workers do? Ever tried to pass a welding certification? Do you have any idea how much training and experience if takes to become a master machinist? I started out working on the docks supervising longshore crews back in the mid sixties. You could not get me to do that kind of work for $100/hr, and not because I think I am smarter, or better than that, or can't stand getting my hands dirty. Sure, it is often unskilled labor, but is strenuous, and often times extremely dangerous. I was working a container ship one time when a man was killed when he mistakenly walked under a hanging cargo container and the cable snapped. Try climbing down into the hold of a grain ship loaded with alfalfa pellets while a trimming operation is going on. You have to wear a respirator, and you still come out spitting alfalfa dust for a week. Someone has to perform that work. Who is it going to be? You? Not me, that's for sure. Oh, sorry, we were talking shipyard workers. Well, I've never worked in a shipyard, but I have two brothers in-law and a close friend who have. Two of them are permanently disabled from broken backs suffered on the job, and one died from asbestos related lung cancer. No sympathy, huh? Good for you. You should be proud of yourself. If these guys were paid $30/hr, they were getting screwed."
Ahh so YOU DO have people in that line of work. And you are throwing a fit despite your protestations in your previous post. Why do you object to some H1B or immigrant doing that work if it is too hard? If there was a low supply of people to do that job, guess what happens to wage? Besides you just stated you refused to do that work for $100/hr. No wonder McCain gets the idea that people are too lazy to pick lettuce at $50/hr.
And if you are looking for sympathy for Longshoremen, I will tell you you won't get on bit from me. Those lazy asses make over $100,000 and they had the NERVE to go on strike.
Singapore runs its operation much more efficiently and the Port of Seattle could be just as efficient of the union wasn't interfering in the business. That is why they are losing out to foreign ports and why the US auto industry is going down the toilet, because of slothy union workers and interference from the union. They think they can whine some and get more money. It doesn't work that way anymore unless you have skills that are in demand.
"What? One of my brothers in law retrained and became a paralegal. I moved up into the agency end of the shipping business and then retrained at age 52 for the information technology field because I was bored. I have been successfully employed in IT for over ten years."
Sounds like a success story to me. Unless of course you think you are a failure.
" Another fellow I know worked in steel fabrication for years until his hands gave out and he had to undergo carpal tunnel surgery. He has a four-year degree in animal science, an associate in police science, an associate in computer science, and an impressive list of IT certifications. He now works as a network administrator."
An associate degree isn't going to get you much these days. I got four of them just for fun. Then I got a BS and MS in Computer Science. And if your friend isn't making at least $80K a year as a network admin, he isn't marketing himself well.
"It seems that many so called "educated" people, even though they often haven't the common sense to pour piss out of a boot, think their sh*t doesn't stink. A good friend of mine who ran a successful multi million-dollar contact lens lab couldn't read, but managed to graduate from high school anyway. He had dyslexia and was blind in one eye. He refused to even interview college graduates after awhile because he got sick of the snotty, arrogant attitudes. He started in business by sweeping out the lens lab after school and on weekends for $1.65/hr, and he was put off by college punks with no worldly experience demanding big money and to start at the top. He used to talk about his brother in law who had an IQ of 165, several degrees, and the ability to play seven musical instruments, but could not hold down a job of any kind. "Bring me a kid with average intelligence and some gumshun", he used to say.
That is a wonderful story. I totally agree. I And that is the attitude most American workers used to have. Hell when I was a kid, I'd shovel snow, push dirt, mow lawns, whatever I had to do to get money. Today you couldn't hire a kid to mow your lawn if you paid them $20/hr.
You have with your own stories here proven my point. Even with the odds stacked against us, Americans can produce the best in the world. We've enjoyed an unprecendented era wherein we were the only game in town because after WWII most of the world's industry was destroyed. Now we have to compete. I think we can do. If a blind guy with no education can do it, why can't the rest of us?
A true American doesn't put up with panty waist complainers. He or she pushes the whiners to get the hell out of the way, rolls up their sleeve and does the damn work.
"At least I can spell and do math. I'm surprised you even know how to type and hit the post button. The Army teach you that in the free spot between your latrine cleaning shifts?"
You can't do either. SP is littered with poor spelling mistakes you make. But you digress because you don't want to answer my question.
If the price of materials went up so much, why didn't the Democrat estimator for the ferry system lowball the bid? Isn't that what you tried to claim above?
Either the Democrat estimator got it all wrong or Todd Shipyards got greedy. Which is it?
And I was right, you were throwing a fit. I can smell union boys 50 miles away.
Did your one eyed lens mogul have a union shop? I can bet you dollars to donuts he didn't.
Posted by: pbj on April 7, 2008 08:16 PMThey do the damn work, but only if someone pays them so they can be contributing members of society. Since you are more than willing to ship the US jobs overseas and betray the very people who you claim to have fought to protect. You are nothing but a modern day Benedict Arnold.
But you digress because you don't want to answer my question.
Oh did you ask a question, it must have gotten lost in your insane psycho-babble that you regularly post.
the price of materials went up so much, why didn't the Democrat estimator for the ferry system lowball the bid?
Because they're trying to save you money...that's what you want them to do right? Get the best deal while keeping the jobs here in America, land of the free (market). If President Bush had managed the dollar and the economy better under his administration we could have paid a lot less.
Todd Shipyards got greedy
It's called free market negotiations which apparently is something you don't have a clue about.
No, they complain and are lazy sloths if they belong to a union because they know they don't have to be accountable. Just like you know you can live off your momma in her basement without having to be accountable.
"Because they're trying to save you money...that's what you want them to do right? Get the best deal while keeping the jobs here in America, land of the free (market). If President Bush had managed the dollar and the economy better under his administration we could have paid a lot less."
Ha ha ha ha. So now it is Bush's fault a Democrat flunky is to damned dumb to properly estimate what a new ferry would cost?
There you go again as Reagan used to say. You are just like slothy union boys. Complain and blame someone else. Why don't you liberals get the hell out of the way and let some real workers solve this mess? Denizen's one eyed lens mogul could probably do a better job than the career Democrat flunky they got doing the estimating now.
"It's called free market negotiations which apparently is something you don't have a clue about. "
Listen to the socialist try to lecture me about the free market. LOL!
Posted by: pbj on April 8, 2008 12:05 PMI see, you think the defense industry is not unionized? Seems like the military has no problems spending extra money there. Now how many AWACS did you say it takes to stop a terrorist with a bomb strapped to his chest?
So now it is Bush's fault a Democrat flunky is to damned dumb to properly estimate what a new ferry would cost?
I see, the dollar deflating, inflation rising, and oil prices spiking is somehow the fault of the party that doesn't control the White House? We're still on the GOP budget passed by the Pork Congress of 2006.
Why don't you liberals get the hell out of the way and let some real workers solve this mess?
Uh huh, we tried that, hence the current crisis were in. Come November voters are strongly considering trying something new. I think this two time Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist pretty much sums it up.
Listen to the socialist try to lecture me about the free market.
Nice dodge, you can't even do basic math why would anyone believe that you even have the faintest grasp of economics. Oh wait, you don't. Maybe you should go back to your potty cleanup duties.
And you wonder why a toilet seat costs $1 million.
Now how many AWACS did you say it takes to stop a terrorist with a bomb strapped to his chest?"
Never said that. That is your straw man. I said that after 911 when we had F16's patrolling the skies for more planes, we didn't have enough AWACS to support them. You just continue to make stuff up. Of course that is in character for a liar such as yourself.
"I see, the dollar deflating, inflation rising, and oil prices spiking is somehow the fault of the party that doesn't control the White House? We're still on the GOP budget passed by the Pork Congress of 2006. "
All that supposed calamity and yet you can stil afford to post on the internet. You must be a rich burgeois. Obviously you need to have your taxes raised.
"Uh huh, we tried that, hence the current crisis were in."
You mean like Gregoire's $24.billion defiict and the fall down any minute viaduct she had FOUR YEARS to deal with? Or perhaps her Department of Corrections that lets criminals out to murder people?
"Nice dodge, you can't even do basic math why would anyone believe that you even have the faintest grasp of economics. Oh wait, you don't. Maybe you should go back to your potty cleanup duties."
You are the one who doesn't know the meaning of the word recession. The only potty that needs cleaned up is you because you are so full of feces.
Face it liar, your Johnny Walker Lindh jihadi days are finished. Guantanimo called and they have your cell ready.
Posted by: pbj on April 8, 2008 02:23 PMBecause the GOP politicians are willing to fund their defense cronies (who in turn give them campaign donations) at the expense of the US Taxpayer.
Never said that.
LIAR, go look it up. What's an F-16/AWAC combo going to do when all commercial flights are grounded? Even after they go up the terrorist will still have to go though all the checkpoint and face the National Guardsmen at the airports carrying M-16's (which is much more effective tool against terrorists than an AWAC).
All that supposed calamity and yet you can stil afford to post on the internet.
Internet is free at most coffeeshops. I'm doing my part to support the American economy, too bad you'd sell out the US economy for a dollar or two reduction in your tax bill.
You mean like Gregoire's $24.billion defiict and the fall down any minute viaduct she had FOUR YEARS to deal with?
Geez, looks like a lot of states are having budget deficit issues...even Republican states. Let us not forget the massive budget deficit the Bush Administration has run up.
You are the one who doesn't know the meaning of the word recession.
So if were in one of those two quarters it takes to call it a recession we're not technically in a recession even though we are? Do tell how that works.
the only potty that needs cleaned up is you because you are so full of feces.
Wow, that was an unbelievably lame comeback.
Once again you've proven to be full of s**t, now get back to cleaning the head Pvt. Pbj. That's an order!
I believe Greenspan to be infinitely smarter than yourself pbj and certainly qualified to know a recession when he sees one.
Once again PBJ, you've been PROVEN A LIAR!! =)
You have painted yourself into a corner. You just said the defense contractors use union labor. Now you are trying to backtrack when it is poited out how that money is wasted.
"LIAR, go look it up. What's an F-16/AWAC combo going to do when all commercial flights are grounded? "
Um yeah. Because all terrorist will imediately comply with such an order. That is why you gullible liberals should be nowhere near national security.
Cato solution after jets seen barrelling toward Twin Towers:
CATO: "Tewowists, I owder yew tew thtop this immediatwee."
TERRORIST: "Allaaaah Akbar,"
CATO: "I am theereeeoth! Don't woo tewowist meth with me. I got nathonal gward here wif wots of wifles."
Here is what GENERAL Richard Meyrs said of that day in senate testimony Sep 13,2001:
"GENERAL MYERS: Mr. Chairman, the armed forces did not shoot down any aircraft. When it became clear what the threat was, we did scramble fighter aircraft, AWACS, radar aircraft and tanker aircraft to begin to establish orbits in case other aircraft showed up in the FAA system that were hijacked. But we never actually had to use force."
"Even after they go up the terrorist will still have to go though all the checkpoint and face the National Guardsmen at the airports carrying M-16's (which is much more effective tool against terrorists than an AWAC)."
That doesn't even make sense. There are national guardsmen on planes? Such garbled thought from our resident junkie. Just how much free Canadian Heroin have you been using?
"Geez, looks like a lot of states are having budget deficit issues...even Republican states. Let us not forget the massive budget deficit the Bush Administration has run up."
So basically you are saying that the state could be on autopilot as far as any effect Gergoire could have. So I guess when times were good that Bush gets credit for that eh?
Basically, by yur own admission, the net effect of Gregoire seperate from George Bush is zilch. Thanks for clearing that up.
And none of those Republicans states mentioned in your source are currently running a $2.5 billion deficit like Gregoire. So at best all you can claim that she makes a bad situation even worse with her bungling.
"So if were in one of those two quarters it takes to call it a recession we're not technically in a recession even though we are? Do tell how that works."
Such poor grammar, I see once again I will need to provide a link so you can learn the difference between we're and were.
Unless there have been two consecutive quarters of negative GDP, you are not in a recesssion. That is the definition. I know you don't like it because it doesn't play to your talking points, but facts can be like that. Oh wait, you don't use facts. Sorry.
"Once again you've proven to be full of s**t, now get back to cleaning the head Pvt. Pbj. That's an order!"
What an IDIOT! The term head is for the Navy not the Army you lame twerp!
Posted by: pbj on April 8, 2008 04:32 PMNever again. Never again.
Posted by: pbj on April 8, 2008 04:42 PMYour right I did...you can read.
Now you are trying to backtrack when it is poited out how that money is wasted.
That money is wasted to feed hard working Americans who want to put food on their tables. Now your suggesting we outsource the military to save a buck? Looks like your suggesting Al Gore was doing the right thing by helping China out with missile technology. PBJ - TRAITOROUS HYPOCRITE WHO HATES AMERICA AND IT'S STRONG MILITARY!!
Because all terrorist will imediately comply with such an order.
So you suggest that a terrorist will climb on a grounded 767 and take off with no passengers aboard so they can fly it into a building? Oh yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. NOT!
And none of those Republicans states mentioned in your source are currently running a $2.5 billion deficit like Gregoire.
I'm sure some have more...like Kentucky. Texas would have a deficit but they tax oil profits.
Basically, by yur own admission, the net effect of Gregoire seperate from George Bush is zilch
Nice twist, but it clearly indicates that President Bush mismanaged the economy leading us into a recession. When in a recession all states hurt (unless they have some additional tax revenue they can exploit like Tx). Gregoire seems to have a decent budget...but you seem to want her to spend more!! One of your misguided talking points was The Viaduct...so you want her to go over budget and go even more debt. Just further proves what a hypocrite you are...damed if you do damed if you don't.
I see once again I will need to provide a link so you can learn the difference between we're and were.
Nice dodge, WE ARE the midst of a recession....you are in a state of denial because you can't admit that President Bush screwed up.
Unless there have been two consecutive quarters of negative GDP, you are not in a recesssion.
I see so if we're in quarter one of the recession we are not really in a recession because it's not technically a recession yet? Denying the problem with pointless doublespeak does not fix the economy.
What an IDIOT! The term head is for the Navy not the Army you lame twerp!
You like taking it in the ass from seamen? I knew it!! You're a member of Jim West's branch of the GOP. =P
Bush having to grovel to NATO because after Clinton we had a hollow military and had to go begging for help.
Sort of like Bush and Cheney going to beg for more oil from OPEC and not getting it? Shows you just how far the Bush Administration and by proxy America's influence in world affairs has fallen. China will be overtaking us any day now thanks to President Bush's flawed economic and diplomatic policies.
I have come to the conclusion that you have an over active imagination. No one here is throwing a fit about anything.
Okay, so you are a union hater. I don't blame you a bit. I don't like them either. They are fraught with corruption. They have too much power and too much influence over our elected officials, and I detest the union line of bullshit that they attempt to inflict on the rank and file. Furthermore, I don't like the idea of busting my ass and getting paid the same as the deadwood. I have worked both sides of the street and I prefer non union employment because I can advance based on my ability. Sure, there is a lot that ought to be changed in the unions. What makes us different, I believe, is that you seem to think that all union workers are lazy whiners. If you do, I can assure you that you are wrong. There are lots of hard working people who belong to labor unions. Union membership is sometimes a condition of employment. Whatever my feeling might be about unions, I don't begrudge union workers. I begrudge deadwood which is a lot easier to eliminate in non union environments. I believe that unions do not belong in essential public services such as teaching, fire, police, and other emergency services, at least not without a no strike clause. Reagan did the right thing when he fired the air traffic controllers back when.
"Why do you object to some H1B or immigrant doing that work if it is too hard?"
I don't object to legal immigrants doing any kind of work provided that employers really can't find American citizens to fill those jobs. I do not, however, buy the line of crap that there are jobs that Americans won't do, or that Americans are not qualified to fill. When I first heard of the H1B program I tried to learn more about it. Specifically, I wanted to know how it is regulated. They best I could come up with is that it is based on the "honor system". Can we read ABUSE? All an employer has to do is SAY that he can't find an American worker to fill his job, and bingo, he gets a cheap foreign worker.
"Besides you just stated you refused to do that work for $100/hr."
Here is what I said, "You could not get me to do that kind of work for $100/hr, and not because I think I am smarter, or better than that, or can't stand getting my hands dirty." I apologize for not posting with more clarity. It is a matter of physical ability. I just could not perform that kind of work on a daily basis. I am not a robust individual.
"And if you are looking for sympathy for Longshoremen, I will tell you you won't get on bit from me. Those lazy asses make over $100,000 and they had the NERVE to go on strike."
Good! I don't sympathize with them either. I don't begrudge them, however. They got what they got through collective bargaining agreement which is perfectly legal, and which the shippers agreed to. Maybe you should file your complaint with the shippers. I don't know how many longshoremen earn 100K, and I don't care. Here is a clip from and article about the last contract negation in 2002:
"The hourly rate for longshore workers ranges from 27.68 to 33.48 -- about the same as a plumber or electrician. According to the PMA, employers paid $32,320 per worker for benefits in 2002, about $16 per hour."
Considering the billions of dollars worth of cargo that passes over the waterfront annually, it is a pittance. Besides, long shore jobs have declined as a result of containerization. They are going to need plenty of money to retrain if and when those jobs are eliminated. I am glad they will have it. Lazy asses! Phfffft, show me. If memory serves, longshoremen renegotiate their contract every three years. The last time they actually went on strike was 1971. Some teachers earn 100K and get summers off and they go on strike every chance they get.
Hard working or hardly working?
Looks like your suggesting Al Gore was doing the right thing by helping China out with missile technology.
Well I knew that deep down you were for Gore selling us out to China.
"PBJ - TRAITOROUS HYPOCRITE WHO HATES AMERICA AND IT'S STRONG MILITARY!!"
Not even close dope boy. Unless you and John Walker Lindh I know that the only reason we have a strong military is that the Republicans have funded it instead of cutting the budget on it and selling off the technology secrets to the Chicoms for some campaing money. That is why liberals like you should never even be near national security secrets.
CATO and Johnny Walker Lindh, to terrorist allies determined to see America destroyed.
"So you suggest that a terrorist will climb on a grounded 767 and take off with no passengers aboard so they can fly it into a building? Oh yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. NOT!"
OH. MY. GOD. Do you realize just how dumb that is? So basically you are trying to tell us that if they had empty planes on 911, they wouldn't have flown them into the twin towers?
Stop the Johnny Walker Lindh arguments and get back to your cell traitor.
"I'm sure some have more...like Kentucky. Texas would have a deficit but they tax oil profits."
Bullshit liar! PROVE IT!
"Nice twist, but it clearly indicates that President Bush mismanaged the economy leading us into a recession. When in a recession all states hurt (unless they have some additional tax revenue they can exploit like Tx). "
Bullshit. When out state runs the highest deficit in the land per capita, it proves how incompetent the Democrat NON leadership has been during their reign of error.
Gregoire seems to have a decent budget...but you seem to want her to spend more!!
No, I want her to spend the damn money on the projects for which it was designated and not rob things like the steel electric replacement monies we has years ago to pad her favorite leftist social giveaways. She does the equivalent of spending the rent money on a flat screen TV and wondering why the landlord is pissed because the rent isn't paid.
One of your misguided talking points was The Viaduct...so you want her to go over budget and go even more debt. Just further proves what a hypocrite you are...damed if you do damed if you don't."
Not a misguided point. It gets to the heart of the mismanagement during her reign. The Democrats have had SEVEN YEARS to do something about that viaduct. To date there is no replacement plan, no work on a replacement has happened at all. When the next quakes comes and that thing pancakes, the blood will be on the Democrat's hands.
"Nice dodge, WE ARE the midst of a recession....you are in a state of denial because you can't admit that President Bush screwed up."
I see the link has helped you. And I didn't have to even put it into Cato-bonics. Now, go read the definition of recession and come back and report to us.
"I see so if we're in quarter one of the recession we are not really in a recession because it's not technically a recession yet? Denying the problem with pointless doublespeak does not fix the economy."
There goes your circular reasoning again. It is not a recession until there have been two consecutive quarters of negative GDP. I am sorry it is an inconvenient truth for you to swallow, but whether it is a Republican or Democrat in the WH, that is the definition of recession. But cheer up. There are two more quarters for you to hope for the worst for the country.
You like taking it in the ass from seamen? I knew it!! You're a member of Jim West's branch of the GOP. =P"
How childish. You must be a latent homosexual as you keep on bringing that into the conversation.
"Sort of like Bush and Cheney going to beg for more oil from OPEC and not getting it?
Nice try at a dodge. Most of our doesn't even come from the Middle East. And unlike the multiple sources of oil in the world, we are the sole manufacturer of the world's best military hardware.
Shows you just how far the Bush Administration and by proxy America's influence in world affairs has fallen.
Oh BS. BJ didn't have any influence with them at all.
China will be overtaking us any day now thanks to President Bush's flawed economic and diplomatic policies."
Well if we are dumb enough to elect another Democrat that sells our military secrets off again, that is certainly a possibility. Then we will certainly be put to work as slaves making our own cheap crap.
It sure comes off that way. Your theme of the brave hard working blue-collar guy vs the spoiled educated guy too smug to get his hands dirty. Let me tell you I had to work my way through college. No one gave me a damn thing. And I don't get to go home when the whistle blows. I often get in the office at 5 a.m. and don't leave until after 11 PM. I get no overtime and I am on call every other week 24/7. So sorry if I lack sympathy, it is just the spoiled educated side of me coming out.
As for getting my hands dirty, I do my own car maintenance and repair. Not because I particularly like to but because I will be god damned if I am going to pay a guy who was too damn lazy to finish high school to leave out the oil and put a bigger fuse in a circuit that is called for. Those are such basic principles that even a neophyte ought to know that. Why should anyone pay professional rates when the quality of the service is lower than a high school shop class?
I meet so many diverse people from other countries who come here for a better life and work their asses off only to be resented by the union sloths that the contrast is quite stark. Maybe having it so good for so many generations has made us soft, I don't know.
But I do know that somewhere in this country there are more one eyed blind guys who have "gumshun". And believe it or not so do some of those fellows with fancy degrees as well. Until you have worked at Microsoft, you don't know what it is to be dedicated to your job or work long hours. You eat breath and drink Microsoft when you work there. That is why people often burnout because you can only burn the candle at both ends for so ling before it catches up with you.
Okay, so you are a union hater. I don't blame you a bit. I don't like them either. They are fraught with corruption. They have too much power and too much influence over our elected officials, and I detest the union line of bullshit that they attempt to inflict on the rank and file. Furthermore, I don't like the idea of busting my ass and getting paid the same as the deadwood. I have worked both sides of the street and I prefer non union employment because I can advance based on my ability. Sure, there is a lot that ought to be changed in the unions.
I think you are wrong about that. I simply detest the moronic mindset that equates union worker with quality product when I myself have experienced so many counterexamples. My brother works for UPS. When they were grooming him for a supervisor position, he had a chance to see the deadwood side of things where the sloths were protected from being held accountable. He ultimately returned to driving because of that.
What makes us different, I believe, is that you seem to think that all union workers are lazy whiners. If you do, I can assure you that you are wrong. There are lots of hard working people who belong to labor unions.
I don't believe that at all. I personally know several people who belong to a union who swim against the current by actually caring about the product or service they produce. Their innovation and creativity is stifled because there is no distinction between those that work hard or are sloths. The union protects waste and inefficiency.
Union membership is sometimes a condition of employment. Whatever my feeling might be about unions, I don't begrudge union workers. I begrudge deadwood which is a lot easier to eliminate in non union environments. I believe that unions do not belong in essential public services such as teaching, fire, police, and other emergency services, at least not without a no strike clause. Reagan did the right thing when he fired the air traffic controllers back when."
I fully understand that some jobs require people to belong to unions as a condition of employment. That is one thing I hate about unions. They confiscate dues monies to fund Democrat politicians. It would be just as bad if they started giving the money to Republicans as well.
"I don't object to legal immigrants doing any kind of work provided that employers really can't find American citizens to fill those jobs. I do not, however, buy the line of crap that there are jobs that Americans won't do, or that Americans are not qualified to fill. When I first heard of the H1B program I tried to learn more about it. Specifically, I wanted to know how it is regulated. They best I could come up with is that it is based on the "honor system". Can we read ABUSE? All an employer has to do is SAY that he can't find an American worker to fill his job, and bingo, he gets a cheap foreign worker."
I agree with that. And both parties are total H1b whores. I have no illusions about that at all. You are right, it isn't regulated at all and the employers often write job description so that there won't be anyone applying for it. A common trick is to require someone to have 10 years experience in a version of software that hasn't even been released. Yeah, I know all about that trick.
"Here is what I said, "You could not get me to do that kind of work for $100/hr, and not because I think I am smarter, or better than that, or can't stand getting my hands dirty." I apologize for not posting with more clarity. It is a matter of physical ability. I just could not perform that kind of work on a daily basis. I am not a robust individual."
It is a good thing you took the bull by the horns and retrained into IT. Good for you.
"Good! I don't sympathize with them either. I don't begrudge them, however. They got what they got through collective bargaining agreement which is perfectly legal, and which the shippers agreed to. Maybe you should file your complaint with the shippers. I don't know how many longshoremen earn 100K, and I don't care. Here is a clip from and article about the last contract negation in 2002:
"The hourly rate for longshore workers ranges from 27.68 to 33.48 -- about the same as a plumber or electrician. According to the PMA, employers paid $32,320 per worker for benefits in 2002, about $16 per hour."
That conveniently leaves out the container crane operators. They make well over $100K. They were on strike as well.
Considering the billions of dollars worth of cargo that passes over the waterfront annually, it is a pittance.
Perhaps, but if the profit margin is razor thin then that "pittance" affects the bottom line. Is it better that the business, be it cargo containers or cars go under because they cannot compete?
Besides, long shore jobs have declined as a result of containerization. They are going to need plenty of money to retrain if and when those jobs are eliminated. I am glad they will have it.
And more may be lost on automation. But that goes to efficiency and competitiveness in a global economy and the union stands in opposition to that. Automation doesn't eliminate the human completely. He merely does a higher more intelligently task suited to his brain and not his brawn.
Lazy asses! Phfffft, show me.
You don't ride the Washington State Ferries much do you?
If memory serves, longshoremen renegotiate their contract every three years. The last time they actually went on strike was 1971. Some teachers earn 100K and get summers off and they go on strike every chance they get.
Memory apparently doesn't serve as they went on strike in 2002. Here is a story about it.
Were you not in Seattle in 2002? Because I recall that people in Alaska were running out of food as apparently they have a critical dependence on that cargo to supply most of their food products. Alaskans were the innocent casualties in that strike.
And I am not going to be defending teachers. Again, it is the quality of the product that matters. And Teachers haven't been doing a bang up job either. One only need rent the movie "Stand and Deliver" to see how innovation in that field is crucified at the altar of the union.
Posted by: pbj on April 10, 2008 12:12 AMThis link talks about the crane operators and their efficiencies here vs Singapore.
Posted by: pbj on April 10, 2008 12:37 AM
Here is a good discussion of that event in 2002.
EVENTS LEADING TO THE 2002 NEGOTIATIONS AND LOCKOUT
In 2001, U.S. West Coast ports handled about 253 million tons of cargo worth just over $300 billion, or 42 percent of all U.S. waterborne trade. The six largest container ports on the West Coast--Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland, Seattle, Tacoma, and Portland--handled slightly more than half of all the foreign origin or destination containers passing through U.S. ports (Hall 2004). The PMA and ILWU negotiations began in late spring and extended well past the July 1, 2002 expiration date. The PMA sought "technological advances to help relieve congestion; enhance productivity, reliability and security by implementing communications solutions with truckers, eliminating redundant data input, automating the dispatch hall, increasing cargo terminal security and reforming the arbitration system" ("PMA Chief Seeks to Modernize West Coast Waterfronts," 2002).
And then this:
UPDATE: IMPROVEMENTS SINCE THE NEW CONTRACT WAS RATIFIED
Since the new contract was ratified, cargo volume has hit record levels and the ILWU has experienced expansion of its ranks. Coastwide container throughput was up 10 percent in 2003, and as a result of the increased volume, more than 800 new longshore workers were registered in Southern California alone (PMA press release, November 23, 2006). There has been a 38 percent increase in the overall registered work force--a total of 14,279 new workers--with most of the job gains coming in the longshore division (Joint PMA press release, May 17, 2002; Mongelluzzo 2007).
SO after automation and efficiencies were put in place, the volume increased and MORE workers were hired.
Prior to the 2002 agreement longshoremen earned an average of $82,895, while clerks earned an average of $118,844, and foremen, who are members of the union, earned an average of $157,352 ("Port Lockout Continues As Sides Dig In," 2002). During the 2002 contract negotiation, the ILWU sought a new agreement to increase salaries by over 57 percent over three years. The PMA responded by offering a 17 percent increase, which the members voted to reject and, eventually, accepted a benefit increase from $24,000 per worker to $59,000 ("Despite Pause, West Coast Dock Dispute Far From Over," 2002). The final 2002 agreement set hourly wage levels based on shift, experience level, and includes premiums for types and condition of cargo handled, such as a 50 cents premium for dust, 85 cents premium for handling damaged cargo, and a $1.20 premium for handling cargo that is burning or smoldering. Table 2 reflects the base 2007-2008 wage schedule before these premiums and overtime.
No sympathy here at all.
West Coast ports handle about 4,000 to 5,000 TEUs per acre per year. With container volumes increasing 10 percent per year, terminal operators must triple those throughput numbers if they are to remain viable by the end of the decade. Terminals in Asia handled an average of 16,596 TEUs a year in 2004 although those numbers include large volumes of transshipments at ports such as Singapore and Hong Kong (Mongelluzzo 2006).
Potential Productivity Gains through Revised Work Shifts
To improve throughput, employers may seek to revise work shifts to reflect the realities of today's trans-Pacific trade. Vessels of 8,000-TEU-plus capacity require uninterrupted work schedules. Extended gate hours under the Pier-Pass system in Southern California and the rapid growth of on-dock rail volume require a work day of two continuous shifts. Longshore work shifts on the West Coast have traditionally been 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. and 6 p.m. to 3 a.m., with the terminals shutting down for a one-hour lunch or dinner break. Eliminating the one-hour dead period between the first and second shifts and staggering meal hours so that terminals operate continuously would improve productivity without imposing a cost on dockworkers (Mongelluzzo 2007).
8 to 5? GIVE. ME. A . BREAK.
Posted by: pbj on April 10, 2008 01:00 AM
It's tough all over. We all have to make sacrifices.
Posted by: pbj on April 10, 2008 01:31 AM