The Seattle City Council passed an ordinance six to one (two absent) to impose a twenty-cent fee if you request a paper or plastic bag at the grocery store checkout. More hassle for the public, more paperwork for the store, more bureaucrats for the City, it's just your nanny government at work. Newbie City Council Member Tim Burgess made the classic frog in warming water statement when he said, "I think after a few months of legislation, we will wonder what all the fuss is about. Same as when we moved to mandatory recycling." Well, not quite Tim. Separating my refuse into two containers rather than one hardly compares to having to carry a dozen cloth bags in my car just in case I purchase a large amount of groceries. If my family has more than one car, make that two-dozen. No one needs twelve bags you say; stand in line behind someone shopping for a family of four? The plastic bags I don't use for trashcan liners get recycled plus I don't have to wash them, using all that precious water, soap and electricity.
If you don't like all this, vote them out. The problem is, short of a major scandal, the reelection rate is very high. In Seattle, tossing out one liberal council member only gets one just as Left for a replacement. Mr. Burgess defeated an incumbent but little changed as far as a voting record is concerned.
Thanks to the Populists who wrote the Seattle City Charter, there is a remedy in Article IV to the bag issue and other related silliness. It's called the initiative. Get 17,967 people (ten percent of the number of votes cast for Mayor in the last election) to sign an initiative repealing the bag ordinance, a majority to vote for it, and the Council may get the message.
Remember the frog. Put in a pan of water and heated slowly on the stove, he hardly notices the warming water until it's too late and he's cooked. Bonfires on the beach, fast food restaurants, driving your car, Styrofoam containers, trans fat; remember the frog.
Posted by warrenpeterson at August 02, 2008 08:52 PM | Email This"Oh gee, I wonder what's NEXT?", asks that hapless ignorant frog frolicking in his hot tub.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on August 2, 2008 09:05 PMThe one thing that has always mystified me about this law (ordinance, whatever) is the inclusion of paper bags. All of the paper bags I get from the store are made from a percentage of post consumer waste and they recycle the easiest of anything, so I don't get it. The rag against the plastic was that some of them ended up in the land fill, or they were being eaten by marine animals or they were floating around the city by the zillions. Conversely, paper was kept out of the land fills by being recycled, were not eaten by anything and I can't ever remember a shopping bag laying in the street somewhere, so what was the deal with (essentially) banning them?
The more these eco-wackos gain control the stranger and more extreme things become. I shudder to think what will be next. Wanting to be early in suggesting the next planet saving policy I wrote the Times a letter yesterday:
Dear Seattle Times;
As far as I'm concerned, Mayor Nickels' eco-cred is beyond reproach but weak. Sure, fees for food store sacks is OK but what about Nordstrom's, Macy's, etc.? There are hordes of bags that need to be taxed (oops, "fee") into elimination at these places too. Don't chicken out Mayor, save us.
But I have a idea that will burnish his honor's eco-cred for decades to come and it doesn't cost a penny. In addition to not costing the tax payers, it will immediately ease traffic congestion and improve air quality. I propose that it be made mandatory that all Seattle city workers must take public transportation to and from work. Think of the decrease in planet killing CO2! Think of the decline in traffic at peak rush-hour times! Think of keeping us from using so much foreign oil! It's just one big win win.
After all, if the Mayor of Seattle and all of the employees that support his eco-policies are really serious about saving the planet, why not put their money where their seat is? Like on the bus.
Sincerely,
I doubt they'll print it.
I hope some enterprising person starts a business selling plastic bags at grocery store street corners all around Seattle.
And smart Seattle residents should go outside the city to shop at other stores that don't ban plastic. Nothing like a decline in sales to help Seattle grocery frogs learn more about Mayor Nickels and his boiling water pots.
Posted by: Jeff B. on August 2, 2008 10:01 PMOf course a plastic bag ban is sheer madness. It doesn't accomplish a goddamn thing except inconvenience customers which in their mad arrogance is what the City Council thinks it has the right and the power to do. But the City Council has no such right. It cannot ban willy-nilly whatever it feels like. There are objective laws that must be adhered to.
In order for a ban on plastic bags to go into effect it must be shown that individual's rights are being violated. Obviously nothing of the sort has happened or is likely to happen. Moral preening is the only reason the City Council voted for this ban. The lowly plastic bag like bottled water has harmed no one but they have incured the displeasure of the intelligensia and therefore they must go.
An unsustainable lifestyle is one without energy. Which is where Nancy Pelosi wants us to go. I happen to find a lot of uses for plastic bags. But one party wants to tell me exactly how to live my life, and that I can't reuse plastic bags. I guess I'll have to buy new thicker bags in the garbage bag aisle to serve my needs. Bag, that take even more oil to make, and get used only once. How sustainable.
How about I set your thermostat so that my life fits within your sustainability goals but yet I don't need to be uncomfortable. What do I care if you are cold any more than you care if I can't make use of grocery store plastic bags.
In other WA counties, we are entrusted to make good decisions as adults. But it is obvious that you Progressive children in King County need supervision.
Posted by: Jeff B. on August 2, 2008 11:36 PMNon-white bags treated differently. Bag-free zone odrinance is not tolerant and exclusionary. Same-sex and same-size bags now banned while cloth bags are allowed. Illegal alien (acquired outside of seattle) bags discrminated against & deported. "Fat" bags (physically challenged) now banned from eateries. Bags blowing around and landing in disabled parking spots are now discriminated against under ADA. Homeless bags under further attack and discriination. It's a lawyer's dream!! School system bag fee proponents yell "it's for the lunch bags!"
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on August 3, 2008 06:50 AMWould most people rather have the two dollars in the their pocket, the answer is yes? But convenience will trump cost. Almost all plastic bags floating in the oceans are not ours anyway, they are from others parts of the world.
Remember when Environmentalist wackos wanted us to use plastic because it took one old growth Douglas Fir to make one paper bag?
Posted by: LCRW on August 3, 2008 07:28 AMI agree it's the nanny state at work, and the principle is troubling, but there are worse things going on with taxation and the nanny state to get upset about. it's really not that inconvenient, once you get used to remembering to plan ahead and put your bags back in your car and wash them from time to time (that's what conservatives do, right, plan ahead for our own future rather than waiting for somebody else to save us?).
I switched to cloth bags FOR convenience, not because of environmental concerns. You can cram many times the weight and about 3 times the volume into the canvas bags as you can into the disposable ones, so it means less trips from your car into the house and no more bags ripped open from too much weight. when I forget, I just buy another cloth bag at the store for $2 or $3. at least the bag tax is realistic for me to avoid
Hmmm, yet another scathing indictment of the rampant stupidity of the average Seattle voter...
Posted by: juandos on August 3, 2008 10:13 AMI have saved and reused grocery bags for many years. Now I shall just use my trips outside the gulag to grocery shop.
I like the term, "Nickel Bags." The connotation seems somehow apt.
Jeff, please don't use the term "progressive" in its political sense. It is merely used by mealy-mouthed liberals ashamed of their own stupidity, or, at least, wishing to conceal it.
Posted by: JB on August 4, 2008 01:53 AMI used to call him Mayor Blah-Blah, but I guess I have to get used to calling him Mayor Bend-Over.
I, too, reuse and recycle all of the plastic bags I get, so this is nothing but an added expense -- goal accomplished!
Posted by: Frank Black on August 4, 2008 08:43 AMThe size of the affected region is unknown, but estimates range from 700,000 km2 to more than 15 million km2 - greater than twice the size of the continental US. It has also been suggested that the patch may represent two areas of debris that are linked.
Further, estimates are that 80% of the garbage comes from land-based sources, and only 20% from ships at sea. Currents carry debris from the east coast of Asia to the center of the gyre in a year or less, and debris from the west coast of North America in about five years.
While a 'ban' of plastic bags is mainly symbolic and certainly bureaucratically bloated - what sort of real solution for reducing the amount of litter and waste that ultimately ends up in our dinner would meet with the approval of most of the gang here? I'm genuinely curious if anyone has any ideas beyond the obvious criticism that the current solutions are light weight political gestures.
Posted by: Acid Brain on August 4, 2008 10:43 AMTodays cracked me up:
San Francisco is the first US city to ban large supermarkets large and chain pharmacies from using plastic bags made from petroleum products.Do you support or oppose this move?
Strongly support
Support
Neither
Oppose
Strongly Oppose
Don�t know
From January 2009, Seattle shoppers who forget to bring along reusable bags will be charged 20 cents for every disposable paper or plastic bag they use to carry home their purchases at grocery, drug and convenience stores.Do you support or oppose this move?
Strongly support
Support
Neither
Oppose
Strongly Oppose
Don�t knowGiven the choice, would you prefer a ban on plastic bags or to be charged for using plastic bags?
Prefer a ban on plastic bags
Prefer the option to be charged for each plastic bag I use
Nothing should change
None of these
Don�t know
I'll give you an update on the results tomorrow morning!
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on August 4, 2008 01:45 PMBurgess needs to go back and look at his notes from his time spent on the Elections Commission. Especially take a look at his comments regarding the ineffectiveness of the Council during the “Strippergate” era. He needs to revisit his repeated criticisms about shortcomings with SPD and SFD caused by Council ineffectiveness. Also take a personal look at his published concerns over utility rates.
.New council member international study mission? Wonder how many bullets and targets that would have paid for SPD to use at training or dog food for the K-9 unit.
Burgess is rapidly becoming “the butt of jokes” he once accused his predecessors of being. He needs to understand that not all the citizens in Seattle have short memories and that their votes can be bought with parking spots for motor scooters.
Posted by: Hey Tim! on August 4, 2008 02:00 PMI knew "Go Grammar!" was a liberal. And I figured -- obviously correctly -- that he's a fascist.
I did not think, however, that he was a religious bigot. Now I know.
Posted by: pudge on August 4, 2008 03:18 PMI have diligently searched for images of the great oceanic garbage patch. I haven't found any.
I am skeptical of the size claims from the various marine environmental agencies.
I call this thing the Wide Plastic Sargasso Sea.
Note that marine circulation patterns would keep our local grocery bags out of the Plastic Sargasso.
Where is the equivalent here in Puget Sound? You know if there was one, every man, woman and dog would hear about it every day.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on August 4, 2008 04:46 PMBut here's how removal of the Plastic Sargasso would play out.
The bagmass has developed its own delicate ecology not unlike that found in kelpbeds.
Greenpeace would sink Sig's ship in mid operation.
This scenario is not far fetched.
Fifteen years ago the City of San Diego closed off their sewage pipes which drained directly into San Diego Bay. Shortly thereafter environmental organizations sued the city because they had destroyed the "delicate sewage based ecology" of the Bay.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on August 4, 2008 04:53 PMThinking back over the last month, how frequently have you re-used a plastic bag when out shopping?
Every day 8.4%
2-3 times a week 11.3%
Once a week 11.9%
Once every two week 3.9%
Once a month 4%
Have not re-used a plastic bag when out shopping 58.1%
Going forward, over the next month, how likely are you to re-use a plastic bag when out shopping?
Very unlikely 38.3%
Quite unlikely 13.4%
Not sure 18%
Quite likely 16.5%
Very likely 13.9%
Do you support or oppose the move of banning large supermarkets from using plastic bags made from petroleum products?
Strongly support 31.4%
Support 22.3%
Neither 14.7%
Oppose 9.3%
Strongly Oppose 18.7%
From January 2009, Seattle shoppers who forget to bring along reusable bags will be charged 20 cents for every disposable paper or plastic bag they use to carry home their purchases at grocery, drug and convenience stores.
Do you support or oppose this move?
Strongly support 21.9%
Support 21.3%
Neither 9.2%
Oppose 14.8%
Strongly Oppose 30.9%
Given the choice, would you prefer a ban on plastic bags or to be charged for using plastic bags?
Prefer a ban on plastic bags 41.3%
Prefer the option to be charged for each plastic bag I use 18.2%
Nothing should change 24%
None of these 13.5%
You people really need to get your act together and vote these people out. At the rate the council is going with all of the fees they are imposing they will run the tax payers out of the city.
Posted by: kim in vancouver on August 5, 2008 09:14 AMThe whole thing is pretty silly, if you ask me. Get an initiative going to overturn this stupid law and I will be the first to sign.
Nickels and the council tax bags, but at the same time promote the building of townhomes that won't last ten years. Where is the waste? They also say that the oil saved by the tax will be the equivilent of taking 660 cars off the road. Gee... out of what, half a million? Not much impact at all.
This tax will do nothing but put grocery store cashiers in an awkward position when someone doesn't have enough reusable bags with them. That and raise some tax dollars.
Posted by: Ken Holmes on August 5, 2008 02:16 PMI see only shoreline debris and a couple of underwater images of plastic things in those images.
No Plastic Sargasso. My quest for an aerial view of the bag gob continues.
What is the mass of plastic in the mythical Sargasso vs. the mass of zooplankton in the entire ocean?
And in your example how was the zooplanton isolated and culled from the plastic? And was the plastic weighed dry?
I suppose I could investigate on my own, but the results of my research would be suspect.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on August 5, 2008 05:30 PMYou provided us with no convincing evidences of the Plastic Sargasso. You wasted our time by sending us to those sites. THAT is obstruction.
deserters shot on sight; non-violent criminals can work off sentences after 2-3 years full time at sea snagging garbage; captains and seamen staffing safety may be an issue, but maybe no more than in a prison;
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on August 5, 2008 09:17 PMhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/roy61/2247528701/
http://www.algalita.org/index.html
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/10-the-worlds-largest-dump
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/19/SS6JS8RH0.DTL
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5524886&page=1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7312777.stm
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-362
Believe It, or Not!
Posted by: Acid Brain on August 6, 2008 01:42 PMI don't see how I can fairly be expected to prove that there are no pieces of plastic in the ocean, but one would think that a floating plastic island miles across would have lots of television footage, maybe even a colony of sea lions living on it.
Before I track each of your links, I would like assurance from you that at least one of them shows one convincing, un-photoshopped aerial photograph of the Plastic Sargasso.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on August 6, 2008 07:20 PM
Please block jizowxgbq cifk.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on August 7, 2008 08:47 PM