"Viaduct to be replaced with tunnel"
After years of immobilizing conflict between the City of Seattle, King County and the state, elected leaders have agreed on a replacement for the earthquake-damaged Alaskan Way Viaduct - a deep bore tunnel under downtown Seattle.But of course. To those who spend their time spending other people's money, the cost is the benefit. Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at January 12, 2009 12:43 PM | Email This
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Gov. Chris Gregoire's spokesman Pearse Edwards said the impasse had been broken."We believe we have a solution that serves all parties and is fiscally responsible."
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The deep-bore tunnel idea is similar to the plan Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels had previously pushed. State leaders rejected it as too expensive at the time - and Seattle voters showed no support for it
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It will likely cost more money than 2007's doomed proposal.
Another RTID? How high can the sales tax go?
Posted by: aoeu on January 12, 2009 12:59 PMJim, you had it, you just need to connect the two.
The costly option received this treatment precisely so you couldn't defend your wallet quickly enough.
In the months following the Nisqually earthquake, there is video of the Sec Trans excoriating the engineer briefing on the three main possibilities. (Replace/trench & cover/deep tunnel) because the engineer had flat out said "This will be by far the most expensive option."
Posted by: Al on January 12, 2009 01:08 PMThis was one idea that I did not like from Rossi, I think this will turn into the "big dig" and there are no exits (that I see) that will lead to downtown. There is currently an exit to Qwest field (southbound) and to the downtown core (northbound) on the viaduct....not sure how this will work.
Posted by: jk on January 12, 2009 01:41 PMMore money for less utility, all to benefit the exquisite aesthetics of the Democratic Party. Oh yes, and to loot and transfer the public treasury from the taxpayers to the cronies thereof.
Next, the Mayor and Governor and all those useless political drones will be designing themselves mausoleums to outdo the one already erected by Roland Burris. And billing them to the taxpayers while they're at it.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on January 12, 2009 01:44 PMYou just know it!
Posted by: Medic/Vet on January 12, 2009 01:49 PMAnd la Gregoire wouldn't admit the State was facing a giant deficit all through her reelection campaign, either. Fiscally responsible? That tunnel estimate must have been left over from her campaign flacks, and had no connection with reality.
Our elected representatives? Tar and feathers.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on January 12, 2009 01:52 PMThe tunnel will be good for people headed north. It will not be so good for people going to / from the Interbay, Magnolia and Ballard, as compared to an aerial structure.
The most interesting question is what's not included. Licata says another $400MM. The second question is how big will the local improvement district boundaries be.
Here's the PI quote about the entry/exit points:
"The tunnel, as currently envisioned, would connect the stadium area with Aurora Avenue with portals at about Royal Brougham Way South and north of the exiting Battery Street Tunnel. The initial proposal would divert some traffic onto surface Alaskan Way, southbound, and onto Western Avenue northbound.
and
"The tunnel as suggested goes in at Washington and comes out at Republican and Highway 99," Aakervik said. "There are no strong east/west corridors where you get dumped off, yet 35 percent of that traffic still needs to get to the NW Corridor - Ballard, Magnolia, and western Queen Anne. So where is traffic going to go? To the waterfront."
Aakervik said that will make his business - delivering diesel fuel for the commercial fishing industry - that much harder, as well as clogging port routes.
Posted by: Stuart Jenner on January 12, 2009 01:52 PMIf the state is going to spend on infrastructure, would it not make sense to go away from Seattle, so that businesses don't have to locate within Seattle, subject to the city council's dictates, in order to take advantage of the new infrastructure?
Would that not tend to give state taxpayers a better bang for buck?
Posted by: russell garrard on January 12, 2009 01:55 PMNot to worry. Offer the "offended" tribe the space, permits and tunnel exit for an underground casino and it will be "what bones?" as quickly as you can deal a hand of blackjack.
Posted by: Saltherring on January 12, 2009 02:02 PMAfter all it is a job no American (company) would want to do, anyway.
Since the existing Seattle tunnel has to pump water back out to the sound that seeps into the tunnel, they must already know how to deal with this problem.
Posted by: Seattleson on January 12, 2009 02:13 PMSo, tough luck, suckers.
Posted by: John Bailo on January 12, 2009 02:26 PMLiberals destroyed the credit markets and the banking system by undermining them with Fannie and Freddie. Their unions have destroyed Detroit and the auto industry by forcing uncompetitive salaries, benefits and pensions. Uncompetitive CAFE standards from Democrats in Congress have forced Detroit to build inferior cars that people don't want to buy, while Democrats continue to prevent America from pursuing energy independence with domestic drilling bans and pursuit of currently unattainable alternatives, all the while promoting fear and doom with their Climate Change con, even as temperatures cool and normal cyclical patterns are evident, and science dismisses the CO2 scare with known science and historical realities.
Every industry under the sun, and every Democrat government is now lining up at the trough for a handout, including even the porn industry (not to be confused with sick governments that profit selling death-sticks, alcoholic beverages, and from destroying people addicted to gambling schemes reserved for government lotteries and native American casinos).
Bush put moderating the misery of our economic troubles ahead of letting the economy crash and burn completely, by starting up the printing presses and throwing fiscal constraint and free market capitalism to the winds. But not before he was blamed for the liberals' mess and a socialist was elected to the presidency.
Now the printing presses are being geared up to be put into "trillion here and trillion there" mode so Obama, the socialists and the liberals throughout government can buy the votes to hold onto power until our economy does literally crash and burn. And it's becoming increasingly likely that Obama's new foreign policy strategy of isolation and appeasement to Iran, North Korea, China and Venezuela will get us into a good old-fashioned World War in time to hide the real cause of our total economic collapse that is coming as the direct result of liberal fiscal and foreign policy insanity.
And all the while the Pravda media gushes over the Messiah, ignores and spins the corruption and policy dangers throughout the Democrat Party, and acts as the Democrats' PR machine.
Yeah, it's an interesting time, eerily paralleling the 1930s on the eve of a decade back then of unparalleled loss of life throughout the world.
I hope I'm wrong. But one thing about being conservative is the tendency to put reality, reason, and logic above irrational belief, ignorance and unjustified optimism.
This tunnel for Seattle is just another multi-billion dollar infrastructure project that someone is going to borrow billions of dollars to build on top of the billions and trillions of existing debt that's already out of control. Multiply that by a number that satisfies Obama's New New Deal vision and we're screwed.
Posted by: Reality on January 12, 2009 02:41 PMFor all the whining about looming deficits I have yet to see these government clowns make any realistic budget decisions. Only when these idiots stop footing the bill for millionaire athletes and useless transportation projects will I consider their other options.
Posted by: Burdabee on January 12, 2009 02:50 PMWith any luck, they will be done with it by 2030, about ten years after another big quake brings down the current structure.
Posted by: Jeff B. on January 12, 2009 02:51 PMI'm just glad a decision has been made - built it!
Or is lack of consistency in your arguments also the fault of democrats.
Sometimes when you're repeating talking points, from either side of the political spectrum, it's worth taking a minute to think for yourself.
Posted by: BA on January 12, 2009 04:27 PMBut we need competent leadership and management to get the thing going. Can Christine do it? (We no longer call female governors "Gov.," but by their first name.)
Our ex-coblogger on Sound Politics Matt Rosenberg is working at Discovery Institute's Cascadia Project to push forward good policies in regional transportation. They are the ones who brought the deep-bored tunnel to life. I know they will continue to push for a good solution.
Posted by: Ron Hebron on January 12, 2009 06:20 PMall lawyers of all sides laughing at the fountain flow of prosperity for billable hours; tunnel will have chronic water leaks and ventilation problems gladly serviced by "connected" no-bid contracted companies; city will scratch head in 10 years and ask "why are we like Calif? broke again? and everyone's leaving?" why indeed...
caveat--be wary of the taxing district they set up for this--they'll try to include Omak if possible
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on January 12, 2009 06:36 PMReality maybe you should seek therapy. No, I mean really. YOU NEED THERAPY. I think that with your delusions, you may be a danger to yourself.
We piss away 3 trillion in Iraq, and not a peep from the blood bathers, but actually spending money on anything good for Americans? Yeah right buddy. Maybe we could build the tunnel with some of the billions Washingtonians give to the IRS, instead of having our tax dollars doled out to the Fortune 500, and Wall Street's Pigs.
Wingnuts hate the government spending money, unless of course it is on war toys.... Then it is just dandy! Cost Plus Wahoooo!!! A trillion here, a trillion there. No problem! Who wants more? Oversight? Are you kidding..... They want money given away in footballs make of $100 bills, and by the pallet. Er, I mean, by the ton. Bushbucks!
Oh but now Obama is in charge, we gotta watch our spending. Can't be spending tax payer's dollars now. Smaller government yesiree. What a frigging joke.
Posted by: All Facts Support My Positions on January 12, 2009 06:58 PMDig&Cover has got to be a lot less expensive than any tunnel.
Posted by: gregg on January 12, 2009 07:44 PMNow here's an idea for a stimulus. Let's reduce class sizes by throwing this tunnel money at hiring more teachers and reducing class sizes? Teachers get paid such a pathetic amount for what they have to put up with it would be money really well spent.
I know, not glamorous enough for these "Big Dig" Democrats and their pork projects.
Posted by: Reality on January 12, 2009 07:52 PMIf this tunnel does not have bike lanes, it is an absolute outrage!
Posted by: facked on my side on January 12, 2009 08:41 PMhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846_pf.html
But who is the Washington Post? They are not Fox News Lies.... Fair and Deranged.
Kinda hard to pay for bridges and tunnels with 350,000 soldiers and contractors in Iraq... Not to mention the VA.
Maybe if we give some rich folks some more tax cuts, the debt will magically disappear. Whadda ya think?
Posted by: All Facts Support My Positions on January 12, 2009 09:30 PMSlimeballs of Seattle! Rot in your debt and get your own money for your tunnel.
Posted by: GregoireandNickelsFags on January 12, 2009 09:36 PMhttp://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/359191_transportation16.html
That is what I do not get. I am told I am not a real republican for not supporting Rossi yet since Gregoire was re-elected I am constantly being reminded how similar these two are. They are not similar in a conservative way... they are both liberal.
Of course now everyone will feel compelled to tell me how I am an idiot for calling their hero Rossi a liberal. Before doing so, remember... Rossi proposed we build a tunnel through downtown seattle, proposed a bailout of a multimillion dollar corporation, and did not propose one way of scaling back the power of government.
Posted by: Lysander on January 12, 2009 10:32 PMThere is no corrolation between money spend per capita and results from public schools. We should not be throwing money at that problem. Remember...
Government is not the solution to our problems. Government is the problem. - Ronald Reagan
Posted by: lysander on January 12, 2009 11:01 PMAs I recall the law applies to buildings, so hopefully would not apply to a tunnel either.
Posted by: russell garrard on January 12, 2009 11:10 PMAnd note how the nuts justify their argument, that frittering money away on Iraq justifies frittering money away on everything else. Eventually there won't be any more money to fritter away.
As with everything, there was a sensible middle ground, and that was the bridge. But with Gregoire running the state into the toilet, what's another $10 Billion?
Instead were now told, they need a new park and a better view. Jezzzz!
Robert @ 27
Comparing this with the "Big Dig" in Boston in moronic
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sorry your wrong. We use the big dig, because like the BG. The cost for this thing will rocket thru the roof, just like the BG.
Which by the way, still leaks.
Posted by: Medic/Vet on January 13, 2009 06:44 AMCouncilman Nick Licata, looking over the announcement noticed a lot was missing from the proposeal, about $400 million in funding, money for any streetcar replacement, Mercer Street worki, or Improvements to Ineterstate 5.
Wow! I realize journalistic standards have changed for the worse over the past 35 years, but this is ridiculous.
Posted by: Rick D. on January 13, 2009 06:51 AMWe have already forgotten the debt rose from under $3 Billion to $6 Billion over night. Does anyone really know how much bleeding is "really" going on with the state, county and city budgets? Knowing how government works the debt could be much more than even currently reported!
As for the soil, most of the area will collapse under drilling. Ask any other soils expert, the costs to shore that up will double the cost!
Just plain idiotic!
But hey the Big Dig knew all this going into the project and went ahead anyway! So we are not the only tax payers with incompetent leadership!
Posted by: looking glass on January 13, 2009 07:01 AMBut, what I hear here is a whole lot of support for the retrofit option except for the liberal Republicans that sometimes post.
Someone should tell Ron Hebron that if they remove the viaduct he will not have sweeping views as he drives through Seattle, which is about all I do now.
Posted by: swatter on January 13, 2009 07:28 AMGovernment isn't the problem. Letting the wealthy, and large corporations control it COMPLETELY is the problem. So Lysander, since government really is you and me, does that mean you have to hate it / us to be a true Republicon? Catch 22, 23, and 24.
By the way lysander. Do you know what Reagan "the visionary" did with the solar panels he took down from the roof of the White House?
Posted by: All Facts Support My Positions on January 13, 2009 07:47 AMGotta' keep pushing the light rail!
Posted by: Vince on January 13, 2009 07:54 AMDo your home work fool!
Posted by: Medic/Vet on January 13, 2009 07:55 AMThat's a politician(s) for you.
It will be at least $8 billion when done. I hope the City gets stuck with it...........
Liberals rejoice.....more wasted tax money.
Posted by: Norm on January 13, 2009 08:47 AMThe Reagan Administration had ordered a previous set of solar thermal panels removed in the 1980s (the Carter Administration had installed the first set).
The Park Service, who oversees White House maintenance, decided to install a new set of solar panels on a maintenance building adjacent to the main house because as James Doherty, an architect with the National Park Service told Environmental Building News in 2003, "we are always looking for opportunities to promote renewable energy and sustainable design and we decided to take advantage of this next opportunity to pursue that mission at the White House.
____________________
The ones the White House had removed were for hot water only. Do some home work fool. Many of these old solar water heaters had a ton of problems.
http://nwfreethinker.blogspot.com/2009/01/nickels-follies-11309-update.html
Posted by: GayCynic on January 13, 2009 09:04 AMMay your stay here be long and inciteful as is Mr. Old Cynic.
Posted by: swatter on January 13, 2009 09:15 AMGranted, this costs more to build in the short term, but will undoubtedly cost less in the long term. Some one here should be able to tell us what the total cost to the region would be if we do the "retrofit/rebuild/new elevated" option considering the amount of time it would take to construct and the costs to the local businesses. I'm sure it will be in the hundreds of billions if we disrupt the economy for 10 years.
Need the proof? Just look at 3rd ave. It used to be the center of the city, and still 18 going on 19 years after they built the cut and cover tunnel that displaced workers and jobs along the corridor, third ave is still a ghost town. It will never recover.
Wake up people! Time to think long term, not just what it will do for you today and tomorrow. If we all stopped and did that we would never have built the thing in the first place.
Do the math for your selves rather than parrot each others views!
Ok, now tear me up. Don't just call me names, but prove me wrong. Really, prove me wrong! Show me the evidence that I'm wrong, and don't just pull sh*^ out of your A** like you've been doing in the rest of this thread!
Cheers!
Posted by: Webster on January 13, 2009 09:43 AMWell, why don't you prove your right. Just saying it's a good idea, doesn't make it so.
Posted by: Medic/Vet on January 13, 2009 10:34 AMWill I be there, resplendent in my spandex? damn straight I will. They can't arrest us all.
Posted by: facked on my side on January 13, 2009 10:52 AMThis way you shore up the sea-wall, the Port get's $300 million to keep their mouths shut, and we get rid of a big unsightly concrete monstrosity along the waterfront without having to tear a major arterial down until the tunnel is complete. Everyone wins but the taxpayers. =)
Let's follow the dem/lib/eco-freaks idea.
(1) per Al bore/UN the oceans will rise. So your going to put a tunnel next to it? The Big Dig still leaks. (ouch) So is GW a lie, or the dems care more about a park with their name on it then people?
(2) They/libs said the viaduct is going to fall down. Now it's just ugly. (can you say lie)
(3) The dem's/libs said we can have a park and small biz in that area. Ok based on what? Seattle has never been biz friendly. Plus you put a park in that area. Guess where the bums will go. Opps didn't think about that did ya.
It's a bad idea in so many ways.
I could go on, but you get my point.
Seems like Cato is onto something though.
Besides, is it possible for you to prove your point without parroting all the propaganda insults? I think we all know which political bent you have by now.
Also, Get your facts straight before you spill your vile. Just where do you get your information? It is clear that you like to run on about things you think you know about without being involved in the process to get where we are....Typical disgruntled Seattle transplant mentality.
The "Big Dig" a boondoggle. To quote an expert ~"Just because it was doesn't mean this will be"
The viaduct will still fall down, that hasn't changed. And, it is still ugly.
The viaduct is still a utility corridor and state right of way. Open space is the only option that they have other than surface street improvements.
Still waiting for some one to prove me wrong...............
Cheers!
Posted by: Webster on January 13, 2009 12:09 PM2) LOL!! You doubt it will fall down, maybe you didn't notice that it's built on fill. I was working a few blocks from the viaduct during the last earthquake, it was pretty shaky down there. It's old, creaky, ugly, and was built long before earthquake standards we're thought of. Maybe you've forgotten the images of the SF earthquake where the upper level collapsed on the lower level of the bridge crushing several vehicles and killing something like 10 people.
3) Seattle seems to have a lot of companies in it for being so biz unfriendly. You going to blame Seattle taxes for the collapse of WaMu? Strip clubs seem to be thriving, they're supposedly going to build a new one down by Safeco Field.
Look at SF, they seem to have reclaimed their waterfront. It's quite nice down there...the waterfront farmers market is always teeming with people and vendors.
I moved back to Massachusetts in 1996. I was out of college and married. The Big Dig was about half completed.
I moved to Washington in 2003. I had sold my first house, and had my first child. Around the same time, the main tunnel of the Big Dig opened to limited traffic.
In 2007, I'd been married a dozen years and had two kids and the Big Dig finally completed.
Not only did it take 20 years, more than half my lifetime to this point, but it resulted in billions of dollars wasted in time and commerce and lives, not to mention the direct costs of almost $15 billion spent on the project itself.
I see no reason to think Seattle would do a better job, in any way, than Boston did. It will cost more, it will take forever, it will waste our time and therefore our money ...
The SF road that fell down was an area that had not been retofited yet.
Remember I'm from CA and I've driven that roadway many times.
The Viaduct can also be reto.
As I said Cato...they said it was going to fall down now! which it hasn't. So anything else they try to say is just an excuse.
Yes the water front isn't bad in SF, it if don't mind fighting off the bums who press you for money all the time.
Posted by: Medic/Vet on January 13, 2009 12:39 PMThe other options were silly because they did nothing to reinforce the sea wall and put big unsightly barriers right along the waterfront. That's prime development space right there, why ruin it.
Webster, as a liberal, would you push real hard to go to the retrofit if we convinced you it was cost-effective and not be too disruptive to the businesses? And what pull do you have? Otherwise, I am not interested in wasting energy to show you what has already been invented.
Suffice to say that one well respected soils engineer and one well respected structural engineer with no dog in the hunt said a retrofit is the way to go. I happen to know their reputations and they are impeccable.
On the other hand, those paid by the State and HAVING A DOG IN THE HUNT to the tune of tens of millions in design and inspection fees said it was, too. At least in their own way- i.e. saying the costs were equal between tear down and new versus retrofit. Considering their conflict of interest, I would say the retrofit is the best (though not ideal) solution.
Posted by: swatter on January 13, 2009 12:43 PMYep, but did you forget. They have 7/24 pumps to keep it out too.
It cost money and CO2 to power them pumps buddy.
So as good dem. How could you even think about a wall that has to be pumped dry. Know that your carbon foot print is getting pretty big. (-:
Well Webster.
Maybe you should follow your own damn words you typical dem/lib fool!
Nothing more than make-work for the unions and Democrats. I kind of doubt the enviros will do a whole lot since they are no doubt getting something in return that we don't know about at this stage.
I say this knowing that as a govt employee and archaeologist I will no doubt personally benefit.
Posted by: Frank Black on January 13, 2009 12:53 PMThe city can use tidal, wind, and solar to power the pumps. =P All three are available along the waterfront.
>Know that your carbon foot print is getting pretty big.
Heck, they could re-open Hanford and have a even smaller footprint.
M/V, you seem a lot more bitter this year. Clearly end of Pres. Bush reign and the loss of your hero Gov. Palin in the election is having a serious effect on your tone.
Try that in most tunnels I've driven through (Boston, NYC, VA) and they'd be scraping your spandex-plated asses off the pavement with square point shovels.
Posted by: Saltherring on January 13, 2009 01:55 PMMe bitter? LOL
Nope, but I am going to sit back and watch you Obama fans go nuts with this spending, then there is Hillary and all her problems. Looks like the AG is another Reno.
And one of the best parts. Obama not sure about that tax cut for the poor, who don't even pay taxes.
Naaa buddy. I'm retired, got my popcorn out and watching the sail boats go by.
Granted. I don't really care what happens to Seattle, long as I don't have to pay for it.
I was there during the snow storm, and that was enough to proof for me that Nickels and gang are going to wreck the city in the name of PC & GW.
Obama seems to working on passing his tax cut in his first term, something Hillary's husband couldn't do.
You should hop on one of those sail boats and cruise the sea's, sounds like you got nothing better to do. =)
>Granted. I don't really care what happens to Seattle, long as I don't have to pay for it.
Too late for that...=P
Nickles has been mayor for 7 years now...love him or hate him it's looking like he's going to cakewalk to another term due to lack of serious competition. Where's Dino when you need him? Or that Dunn kid on KC Council? ;)
Posted by: Cato on January 13, 2009 02:09 PMSay what... How many years has this website been up.
Many of us yelled thru the roof about the spending. Most of all this worthless bail out.
Yet I don't see zip coming out of you about Obamas spending like a drunken dem.
Maybe you should ease up on your drinking cato. Your memory is a little off.
My plan was to retire three years ago with my young trophy wife (five years younger) and tour the world. Now, we got saddled with 2 young kids (our choice as we adopted from foster care system) with a lot of attitude. I still could retire, but my stocks say I can't. So, I am jealous as all get out. (Having a blast, BTW- I should add, except I am jealous of you)
Posted by: swatter on January 13, 2009 02:22 PMFirstly, M/V, I've never called you any names, however it is clearly in your vocabulary to do so as a way to inject what you think to be intellect and individual thinking.
Let us just look at your last comment...22 out of 58 characters are focused on personally insulting me....That's 26%. 26% of what you say is worthless!(That number decreases if you add in the negative space between the letters) But, of course we're trying to not look at the negative, or are you? I feel really bad for you.
Swatter, It's clear that you favor a retrofit, and no, no matter what you said or did to try and convince people that they could retrofit the thing safely, and without disruption, or minimal disruption to the businesses that exist along the waterfront all the way to 1st ave can make a mistake any better than it was in the first place...a mistake.
Sure it may be "less expensive" to retrofit the existing viaduct. I agree, but only in the terms of what will immediately come out of our pockets on the word GO. Take for example the 3rd ave bus tunnel. It was supposed to re-invigorate 3rd ave. Assistance Programs were in place to assist those businesses along the corridor survive, yet they have yet to come back to that area, not have new ones taken there place. That was 18 years ago. Perhaps we can do it better now, but we're still paying the price for that tunnel. Besides that, we had to retrofit the tunnel just to do what it was supposed to do in the first place! Seems like with the rebuild that you would like to see we would most likely go down that path again making the cost rise to some extraordinary level as well.
That's right Frank Black double the price from the start! Even with the retrofit, or rebuild, or surface option As an archaeologist, they will surely find something. That may be true even with a tunnel. I'm just waiting to see how they will do anything and still get past SEPA and shoreline protection acts, not to mention PS water quality restrictions no mater what version is finally agreed upon.
This one is my favorite, of yours "I am not interested in wasting energy to show you what has already been invented." as it implies that tunneling is "new technology" as opposed to "retro~fitting" which is some how tried and true tech. Huh? I agree that man has been fixing things since the day he started building things, but to infer that tunneling is some how has not been invented yet, is truly funny. But I don't get it. As a "professional" I will assume that you already know that.
M/V you're from out of town, so I wouldn't expect you to know the history of the viaduct. Swatter, you sound like a more mature local, who possibly does. Let's remember that this current existing option was done in the first place because it was the cheapest option, mainly. Secondly, it was run through part of the city that we didn't care about at the time....The polluted, run down, "bum" infested no mans land called the waterfront, in a time before forward thrust and urban renewal.
Just because it cost's less and preserves a mistake, doesn't necessarily make it the best option. I question the rational from you two that making the same mistake over again is the best way to do this. (Huh??????) Please explain...
Now Most all of us (the two of you included) want the water front in some form. It is in that form that we find our disagreements in.
Oh, and
1. I'm not a dem/lib. Probably not as conservative as either of the two of you though.
2. No one of any value ever said the "viaduct was going to fall down, now!"
3. I never said I had any pull what so ever, not with any one or any thing. I'm just more informed, most likely.
Cheers!
PS... Not that it matters. I've lived and worked here since the 1990.
Yes, I've gotten to know your area VERY well.
Posted by: Medic/Vet on January 13, 2009 04:48 PMWell SIR. Let me take my hat off to you. Your a far better man than I am. Taking care of two children that the parents could not, is a calling far above me!
I've given up my time to work with other children, but taking them in.. Another story!
Like you I also have stocks and yeah it's hurts. I'm lucky. After the service I came home to San Diego, went back to school (1973)and have been working as a fire fighter/medic ever since. Both of my boys are grown and I haven't been married in since 1978. So I have a bit of an edge on you.
Fear not. Obama will come and go. You'll retire and have a blast. (-:
So, I'll end this in words that you understand.
and you don't know cr*p!, much less cr*p about this topic!
The only thing that is clear is that your IQ is directly proportionate with how much you post here in these threads.
Nothing here people, but a few disgruntled right wing~nuts that cry because the world doesn't revolve around them.
Same on the other threads.
Don't you have anything better to do?
Oh, wait, I forgot, you be retired and know my area bery bery goood. Yesseree you sure do,now don't cha there sonny boy.
No wonder this website never made it out of obscurity.
Don't worry folks, I'll find the door and close it tightly on my way out so the wack jobs stay in the dark, and eat their own young.
Cheers!
I a fool. (Ha Ha)
So, I'll end this in words that you understand.
and you don't know cr*p!, much less cr*p about this topic!
The only thing that is clear is that your IQ is directly proportionate with how much you post here in these threads.
Nothing here people, but a few disgruntled right wing~nuts that cry because the world doesn't revolve around them.
Same on the other threads.
Don't you have anything better to do?
Oh, wait, I forgot, you be retired and know my area bery bery goood. Yesseree you sure do,now don't cha there sonny boy.
No wonder this website never made it out of obscurity.
Don't worry folks, I'll find the door and close it tightly on my way out so the wack jobs stay in the dark, and eat their own young.
Cheers!
Nothing to say but he repeats it often anyway.
Enamored, to the point of delusion, with his own "intellect" and/or "education".
Discounts and abuses anyone with any real experience or sense.
And as such, fits in well in the Hollywood dreamworld that America seems to have become.
But, you can't say that of the Viaduct which was put on water's edge. On the waterfront (back when we had fish) the waterfront was all fish processing plants, Ivar's, Cargill's and the Edgewater. I suppose most people thought it was good to separate the waterfront from the rest of Seattle. And don't forget the old Skid Row (Road) near 1st Ave. which had a lot of flavor, so to speak.
So no, I don't see anything wrong at all with the Viaduct remaining from a cultural standpoint. No one alive today (which shows how old it is) can even remember the looks without the Viaduct.
Posted by: swatter on January 14, 2009 09:01 AMI never have figured out what Skid "Row" is, or how such a distortion originated. But then again, how many people actually know what a skid road is?
Posted by: Saltherring on January 14, 2009 12:22 PMAnd for sure, the younger posters don't know what a skid road is and I never saw one.except the vestiges after a road was tore up.
Posted by: swatter on January 14, 2009 12:57 PM"Skid row" is now what is called Yesler. It was made of logs running parallel to the sidewalks, and used to "skid" logs down to the waterfront, back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. After that it became the seedy part of town and associated with prostitution, porno's, and the down and out types. Lots of towns around the PNW had one and it's usage as a term for a run down part of the city endures to this day.
As a history buff, I'll look it up and give it a read. You would be surprised at how much you can begin to understand today by learning about yesterday.
Posted by: pongo on January 14, 2009 06:02 PMAll this hatred and spewing about Seattleites and liberals in the posts prior to these last interesting history posts!
And this is despite the fact that all the guilty spewers are busted repeatedly by other posters right here pointing out that Rossi campaigned on precisely this deep bore tunnel idea.
If Rossi had won and was proposing the same tunnel right now, all this venting would turn to fawning. And show that you folks are letting emotions interfere with principles.
I personally am one conservative who is going to hold to a true conservative position here:
1. No tolls (tolls are inherently unfair)
2. No federal debt financing.
This leaves what--going outside the DoT to get a retrofit estimate from an engineer not connected to the feeding trough?
It's tempting. Too bad people aren't cynical enough about the desire of the DoT to spend money to get past official denials of any reasonably-priced fix.
So, we're back to the surface option.
The surface option sucks, but it sucks just a tad bit less than all the other options, and maybe we could swing it without troubling you all for your wallets.
By the way "The cost is the benefit" is a priceless quote from S.S.
Thanks all,
New Left Conservative #1
Posted by: New Left Conservative # 1 on January 14, 2009 11:35 PMI guess the ferries should be free then, huh?
Posted by: Saltherring on January 15, 2009 07:28 AMRight on target!
Personally I don't care about Rossi or Gregiour(sp) , or all the insults being passed back and forth. As far as I'm concerned, a decision has been made.
We now have two choices ~ move forward, and try to make it the best possible result it can be, or fall back into our comfortable zone of synicism.
We are getting way off topic, on this thread as well.
I'll pose a question for you all ~ Where do we go from here? Should the tunnel be built, or should we protest?
"Harsh words posted behind funny names to remain anonymous is really easy to accomplish. To stand up and be counted and recognized for your beliefs takes courage."
Posted by: pongo on January 15, 2009 09:59 AMThe truth is that Mayor McCheese runs the state of Washington. Our Governor has shown she has zero backbone because her demands from last year went away. Frank Chopp is simply powerless now and will most likely bow down to Mayor McCheese from Seattle.
If I were the rest of the state residents, I would be furious and flood my representatives with your concerns over the waste, fraud, and abuse of your tax dollar.
Posted by: broketaxper on January 15, 2009 11:09 AMHa, Ha! That must be why bridges keep falling down, sinking, etc. in Western Washington! Well, maybe it's not all the fault of the engineers, some of the fault could be the government officials as well!
Let's see, it started with "Galloping Gurdy", which collapsed around 1940. The old West Seattle Bridge got hit by freighter in 1978 and was stuck in the open position. Then there was the old Hood Canal Bridge that sank in 1979.
Then, in 1989, the 520 Bridge malfunctioned when they were testing the raising mechanism while traffic was going over the bridge. The middle section raised in the middle of traffic!
Finally, there was the old I-90 bridge over Lake Washington--remember how that sunk over Thanksgiving weekend in 1990? The sinking parts dislodged a few of the tiedowns from the new I-90 bridge. Remember the tug boats pulling the new bridge back to the South? They were afraid of the "worst case scenario" of the new bridge breaking free from it's moorings and floating North into the 520 Bridge--gee, we could have lost all 3 bridges in one fell swoop!
Boy, for having such good engineers, Seattle and Western Washington sure have had problems with bridges!
Posted by: Bill H on January 15, 2009 12:53 PMI had to laugh at the "harsh words posted behind funny names" comment, because that sure is me on this blog site, I admit to being a true coward behind all those strong opinions.
But then, I'm still in the closet as a conservative. Even though I'm a very, very, very, far left conservative, that's still a bit dangerous here in the big city.
Certainly tolls appeal if you really want to finance a project, but they are always fundamentally unfair because they simply tax the person who needs to travel on a road that has an accidental monopoly.
If we need to fix the Aurora Bridge or I-5 ship canal bridge, it will cost billions, but no one will suggest a toll, simply because there are so many other ways to get across the ship canal.
I believe, if we don't want to raise the gas tax, we don't want the roads, and I'm ready to leave it there, even if it means someday they have to use heavy machinery to dig my flattened body out my flattened little subcompact from the remains of the Viaduct, which I drive often.
Thanks all,
New Left Conservative #1
PS, I do think the gas tax should be used to subsidize even more of the ferries than it does currently, but free ferries doesn't work. I hope that doesn't prove a flaw in my logic.
Posted by: new left Conservative #1 on January 15, 2009 05:59 PM
