For those of us in the Second Congressional District, you might want to give your feedback on health care directly to our Representative, Rick Larsen, tonight in Coupeville, Saturday afternoon in Mount Vernon, or Wednesday night in Everett. And please be civil and orderly. There's plenty of ways to show your dislike of the bill without being disorderly. If you're angry -- like I am -- be angry, but do it with civility.
Posted by pudge at August 06, 2009 09:57 AM | Email ThisMaybe he'll expand on this a bit if given the chance. He's not a bad guy.
Posted by: Gary on August 6, 2009 10:03 AMAnd I don't think he is a bad guy, I just disagree with him on many things and want someone more conservative to take his place. :-) But he is my Representative now, so that's irrelevant here. But yeah, it's not like he's McDermott or something. Shudder.
All that said, most of the anger I see is directed less at individual politicians and more at the plan itself, and the party behind that plan. So even if Larsen is against it, I expect some anger will be directed toward him as a representative of the Democratic Party. And that's not undeserved ... as long as it's civil and orderly and he gets his chance to speak.
AARP members are starting to figure this out.
Posted by: Gary on August 6, 2009 10:56 AMI'm disappointed you are sucked into even focusing on "civility" pudge. If there was ever a time to be angry it's now.
PS--
Do you get a badge for being a member of the civility patrol??
Think about it pudge...
The Leftist Pinheads have already shifted the focus off the actual Bill and it's consequences...and on to civility.
You should encourage any non-violent participation in the process.
Civility??
MY A$$!
No such trap exists.
People have a right to be real angry ...
And I said you should express that anger. You obviously didn't read what I wrote. But expressing anger and being civil are not mutually exclusive.
I'm disappointed ...
I don't care.
The Leftist Pinheads have already shifted the focus off the actual Bill and it's consequences...and on to civility.
And the less civil you are, the more you help them shift that focus.
You should encourage any non-violent participation in the process.
No, I should not.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Weather-stations-give-flawed-temperature-data-meteorologist-claims--52563192.html
Posted by: Medic/Vet on August 6, 2009 01:22 PMSure prevents meeting with and hearing the real people talk, or should I say, the people who do not agree with what he had done or wants to do to us.
And, how about those non-partisan county seats that both parties are contacting us about their partisan pick?
Why not be truthfull and call the positions what they are, Deomcratic and Republicans who want to do what they want to do to you, without the party being blamed!
Posted by: Sam Cole on August 6, 2009 01:26 PMIn other words, he is a total class act who has earned my respect and the respect of those who know him.
They prove the point of my post: when you're disorderly and abusive, people don't really listen to what you have to say.
http://www.breitbart.tv/aarp-reps-cancel-listening-session-after-participants-refuse-to-keep-their-comments-quiet/
(Sorry, but for some reason I can never get links to work on this board.)
It was on Drudge today. They were actually pretty civil, but since they weren't drinking the Koolaid the bureaucrats shut down the microphones.
He says he does not support a public option - but he does, just not the public option in its current form. He has said he would favor a public option if payments were not based on existing Medicare rates of reimbursement.
As far as his attitude toward town hall participants goes, I am disappointed. He does not believe people who are opposed to the plan represent a grass roots movement, and he is wrong. He chooses to be deliberately blind, rather than to actually listen to people's concerns. He will not do us the courtesy of owning that individuals might think and act for themselves, motivated by principle and not as paid activists.
Posted by: PeggyU on August 6, 2009 05:51 PM
PeggyU ... yes, Larsen's attitude is disappointing. But I also think it's fine and good for him to reserve certain meetings just for vets and their issues (which include health care, of course). And I think he was mostly responding to people trying to take time away from the vets for other issues. Let's hope he has a better attitude at the health care town halls.
He favors the Obamacare plan, and has already voted for "Crap On Trade", and to give sexual deviants a higher preference and protection under the law than normal people have.
Baird is a coward.
Posted by: joebandmember on August 7, 2009 04:45 AMJust following the command of their Obamassiah. Argue, get in faces, and lie, all to achieve their goals. Machiavellian to the extreme!
Duff,
Puffed up egos on the Internet... I've disagreed with pudge several times (but I agree with him more), and he's never edited my comments. Now, if I called him a bunch of names, or flat out lied about him time and again, I'd understand. He's always struck me as fair.
And if he did cut me off/delete a post, I wouldn't get all pissy about it, either - it's his sandbox, so its his rules. The Internet's a big place, go make your own blog if you like (I did - shameless plug for Simply Shrug).
But some just can't let their own little egos go!
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on August 7, 2009 09:06 AMWhen did Pudge ever support Sotomayor?
Posted by: Medic/Vet on August 7, 2009 09:16 AMEmpathy = Bias. And empathy as a wise Latina = racism and bias. There's simply no basis for color, empathy, culture, etc. before the law. All humans have free will, and sometimes they make big mistakes and break laws. That's why we have laws. The law should apply equally to everyone.
But Dem Victim Mongers need outs for their protected victim classes where they can hand out olive branches in exchange for votes. Sotomayor is nothing more than the latest extension of that philosophy.
Posted by: Jeff B. on August 7, 2009 09:54 AMWhere do you think a controlled, civil debate on this Health Care issue will lead pudge??
Throughout his campaign Obama pledged fiscal responsibility and balancing the budget.
In 6 months, he has done a 180.
Where do you think this massive Deficit Spending and Government control will lead pudge??
The ONLY reason healthcare is receiving the vast attention is because of courageous people willing to shout their outrage. Yet you encourage them to remain "civil" and wait their turn to speak which will never come because these Town Hall meetings are orchestrated by those in power!
pudge, I'm sorry you grew up in the "soft" generation...so many things taken for granted, right? Don't want to get your hands dirty, right?
And your logic that somehow the MSM would be forced to address issues if protestors stopped screaming and interrupting?? Are you kidding me pudge?
Think about how our Country was founded, how it survived and how we got to this point. It wasn't with civility! It was with courage, sweat & blood.
Keep writing Patty Murray & Maria Cantwell civil letters. Same for Obama and our Congressmen. That will make a reaaaaaaaal difference. Oh...and go to orchestrated Town Hall meetings and watch the hard questions outnumbered 10-1 by the softballs. Feel good about going and being so civil.
Wake up pudge.
Get your head out of the clouds, the sand or whatever deep- dank place it may dwell.
Once an over-reaching Health Care Plan is adopted, our way of life will negatively change. We will work for the government...not the other way around.
But sleep well my friend!! At least you were civil...you can tell your friends in the health care rationing line.
You seem like an honorable, always take the high road kind of guy. Bully for you! I'll bet there were folks on the fringe surrounding our Founding Fathers just like you.
John Adams was on the fringe? That's an odd thing to say, Cynical.
Remember, for every Sam Adams there's a John Adams. If you must be Sam, I can't and won't stop you (unless I am at a meeting with you and I think you crossed a line). But some of us are just more like John. Some of us prefer to be civil when possible, and to resort to less only when that's the only available option.
There is no relationship between taking something lightly, and being civil. There is no reason I cannot be civil now, and be ready for "uncivil" action later.
There's a time and a place for everything. I do not believe town hall meetings with a Congressman who has not proven himself to be my enemy on this issue is the time or the place for incivility.
Where do you think a controlled, civil debate on this Health Care issue will lead pudge??
Most importantly, to each side understanding the other's positions. The battle lines, with Larsen, are not yet even drawn.
Where do you think this massive Deficit Spending and Government control will lead pudge??
To very bad places. Which is why I am working against it.
The ONLY reason healthcare is receiving the vast attention is because of courageous people willing to shout their outrage.
No. Health care got a ton of attention long before these town meetings started.
pudge, I'm sorry you grew up in the "soft" generation...so many things taken for granted, right? Don't want to get your hands dirty, right?
Riiiiight. You know me soooo well. LOL.
And your logic that somehow the MSM would be forced to address issues if protestors stopped screaming and interrupting??
I never implied that, or anything of the sort. You've got me confused with someone else.
Oh...and go to orchestrated Town Hall meetings and watch the hard questions outnumbered 10-1 by the softballs.
Shrug. If Larsen surprises me and ducks the tough questions, have no fear, the level of civility will drop quickly. The point of civility is so we can have a dialogue; if he refuses to engage in dialogue, then of course, the reason for civility is lost.
Feel good about going and being so civil.
I do.
But sleep well my friend!!
I always do.
Except before trips. I keep waking up worrying about the travel details. I hate that.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.334:
To me it seems as a good compromise. Is it still dead in the posters (here) eyes, also. If so, is any health care reform option acceptable. To me, the status quo is not acceptable.
Posted by: tc on August 7, 2009 12:29 PMThis is how the left works: they come up with a plan that is offensive on many levels, and they take out some of the offensive parts and call it a compromise.
The government has no business in health care exchanges. They do nothing for me. And less does the federal government have any business in a state-run exchange.
is any health care reform option acceptable
Of course. The sad thing is that the left and right actually agree on many positive steps that could be taken to cut costs, but the right won't agree to it if it means massive new government controls, and the left won't agree to it WITHOUT those massive new controls ... because they know if they did, they would never GET those massive new controls.
Apart from cost-cutting measures both sides could agree on but that won't happen on their own because the left won't let it, there's also the fact that costs keep going up because individual consumers (whether in group or individual plans) are becoming less connected to the actual cost. And overall, the Democratic plans call for increased disconnection. (One exception is that Democrats are pushing for portability, which could put individuals more in touch with the cost, but I've yet to see the details to see if it would.)
It is interesting that we hear talk of the Senate considering bills, but from the opencongress.org website, I can't find which bills its considering, other than a IT related bill and a VA bill. The main hit that comes up is HR 3200 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/show), which is Dingell's bill.
Do you know from the town halls, which exact bills are being considered?
Thanks in advance.
Posted by: tc on August 7, 2009 01:02 PMI expect it is H.R.3200.
But of course it would require Obama to a) admit he was wrong. b) Go against his Statist impulses, and c) it would actually be successful, which is the last thing any Democrat wants.
Posted by: Jeff B. on August 7, 2009 01:46 PMJeff B: That plan would never pass. Americans don't want to lose their current insurance
Huh? Krauthammer's plan would let you keep your own plan, intact. No one is forced to take a new plan or switch providers.
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on August 7, 2009 05:32 PMFalse. Otherwise, they wouldn't have had a problem closing a loophole in the bill sealing off access to illegal aliens with the Heller amendment. Honesty isn't exactly a commodity you have in reserves, John.
On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation's estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama.The House Ways and Means Committee nixed the Heller amendment by a 26-to-15 vote along straight party lines, and followed this action by passing the 1,018-page bill early Friday morning by a 23-to-18 margin, with three Democrats voting against the plan.
So not adopting the Heller amendment was for what purpose? I thought you Democrats wanted a bi-partisan approach? We both know that is a lie, John. What are the odds that section will be scrubbed at 3am the morning before passing?
SEC. 242. AFFORDABLE CREDIT ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.(a) Definition-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
(1) IN GENERAL- For purposes of this division, the term 'affordable credit eligible individual' means, subject to subsection (b), an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States (other than as a nonimmigrant described in a subparagraph (excluding subparagraphs (K), (T), (U), and (V)) of section 101(a)(15) of the Immigration and Nationality Act)-
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
4
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
I would bet my life this section is not in the final bill that Obama signs.
Care to wager on whether this is present in the final bill, John?
300 PAGE AMENDMENT ADD TO CAP & TRADE BILL AT 3:00A.M BY DEMOCRATS
re: the bet
I have your e-mail address as you've written to my account. We can set up something through that.
So, with that, will you admit voting against the IEVS was simply political gamesmanship, John? From the party of the president who promised he'd seek bi-partisanship in his administration. Of course, bi-partisan to Barack Obama is agreeing with his position, as we've found out these last several months.
Posted by: Rick D. on August 7, 2009 06:22 PMI think the opposite is closer to the truth.
You can tear down ideas without tearing down people.
I know. Probably too much to ask. Alas.
Posted by: Jack Turk on August 8, 2009 08:27 AMAnd forcefully telling Larsen that Obamacare is a horrid "solution" is more than acceptable.
Posted by: iconoclast on August 8, 2009 08:32 AM"The size of this auction coming up, $235 billion, is really rather shocking - especially when you consider that that's roughly the cost of the entire Viet Nam war. That was considered off the scale and lasted ten years. This action is just in one week. It's an amount that annualizes to $12 trillion - and it's still just starting.
They are going to have to borrow even more money to bail out all of the other banks that are going to fail (which is going to completely bankrupt the FDIC) and all the pension funds that are going to fail (which are insured by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation). And there are lots of other financial catastrophes still on the runway.
This $235 billion is just a drop in the bucket - and I'm not entirely sure where they're going to get this money. If I were a foreigner and I already owned massive amounts of U.S. debt, would I want to buy that much more? That's especially questionable when any intelligent person can see that interest rates are being artificially suppressed. That makes buying this debt a guaranteed loss. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
The Chinese have, say, $2 trillion in foreign-denominated reserves, of which they say about $1.4 trillion is U.S. paper. They realize they're holding a burning match; they want to get rid of what they have, not buy more. But here's the scary thing: even if the Chinese lent the U.S. all their $2 trillion of FX, it would only cover this year's U.S. borrowing. Where is the U.S. going to get next year's? Because next year, it's going to need even more.
Let me be as clear as possible. There's no way out of this without major structural changes. It's not going to be just a disaster. Catastrophe is a better word."
The clock is now spinning..not ticking pudge.
We don't have time for civility.
Civility and apathy have gotten us to this point.
Nothing you wrote actually addresses what I wrote. You continue to do nonsensical things like compare civility to apathy, as if there is any logical relation. There is not, unless you mean an inverse relationship: the only serious reason to expend the energy to be civil is because you DO care about the outcome.
But it's telling that you "don't care about Rick Larsen." See, I am going to a meeting with my Congressman, and you don't care about that, yet you are dictating how people should act at something you don't care about.
Enough said.
Obama is shoveling our tax monies to his cronies.
He's appointed an openly racist judge to the supreme court.
He uses stimulus and health care scare tactics to funnel money to his cronies.
We have to make it clear that everything is rotten in Denmark.
Posted by: Out, Out on August 8, 2009 10:02 AM:-D
denmark is a great place to live. quality of live is significantly better than anyplace in the northwest.
also, the inflation-adjusted cost of vietnam is $700 billion, not $263b. and that's just direct costs, doesn't take into account the post-war care costs of vietnam vets.
Posted by: mike on August 8, 2009 10:46 AMSpoken like a true collectivist. Raise my taxes so it's a net gain for you.
And people like you have the gall to call us greedy and selfish?
The said part? You don't even freaking recognize it.
Posted by: jimg on August 8, 2009 10:54 AMHow would you know if you've never lived there? You're free to leave any time, mike. Also, I noticed you never did address your 4 SEIU union thugs beating up a black man simply pedaling "don't tread on me" flags outside a town hall meeting. Is this your idea of a sane Democrat party tactic to oppose those opposing obamscare?
Posted by: Rick D. on August 8, 2009 10:59 AMOut, out..
I was one of those apathetic Conservatives too...trying to HOPE for the best.
Once I eliminated emotion, I saw how orchestrated this whole White House scheme is to jam thru Health Care. Without the "civil unrest", this thing would be jammed thru.
pudge=="nuf said. You should be greatful folks have the guts to scream loud & clear. But go ahead and "call them on it". Isn't that what you said??
Anyway, Larsen is immaterial. Do you really think Larsen's House vote matters?? Geez are you naive pudge.
Here is the guy who really matters..Max Baucus.
From today's Bozeman Chronicle--
"As chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Montana Sen. Max Baucus is a key ally for Obama in the Senate. But recent reports have suggested the health reform bill coming out of Baucus' committee could strip key points of Obama's plan, including a public option insurance plan."
There is a huge rally scheduled for Sunday when Baucus is here.
Obama is coming on Friday to put pressure on Baucus.
Montana is the battleground for the Public Option.
Write to Baucus.
He is in his 6th term.
This is his legacy.
Really apropos of nothing, but...
"Also, do you fear the Denmark Military??
They rely on the charity of their neighbors to protect them."
You do know that Denmark is a member of NATO who sent troops to Iraq... at our behest?
And protected from whom???
"As we draw close to finalizing -- and passing -- real health insurance reform, the defenders of the status quo and political point-scorers in Washington are growing fiercer in their opposition," Obama said, without naming names, in his weekly radio and Internet address.
"Some have been using misleading information to defeat what they know is the best chance of reform we have ever had," Obama said..."Let me explain what reform will mean for you. And let me start by dispelling the outlandish rumors that reform will promote euthanasia, cut Medicaid or bring about a government takeover of health care. That's simply not true," Obama said in his Saturday address.
"There are those who ... are trying to exploit differences or concerns for political gain," he added.
The Republcian response:
Republican Rep. Tom Price of Georgia took aim at this White House move.
"When no one is listening to them, sometimes people have to speak up," Price said in a statement released on Saturday.
"Rather than listening to the concerns of those who will face the consequences of the legislation, the White House has laughed off the thought that Americans might have sincere concerns about a plan that relies so heavily on government involvement in health care."
The Chicago gangland politics ploy isn't working Mr. President. It's time you start realizing it.
Btw I am fairly certain the conservatives in Denmark didn't have a platform of emulating our health care nonsystem, did they? Nor did they eliminate their own scandie socialized medicine did they?
Because the voters like it.
Don't they?
These are simply facts, denying them is a sign of delusion. Much like thinking there was no moon landing, or like thinking that somehow one would be justified now, in not being civil towards your fellow Americans at a town hall, or the delusion that somehow you've been deprived of something that would make it justified to act outside the law, as some in this thread are hinting they are about to do.
Believe me, should anyone resort to violence they ought to be fully prosecuted and go to jail.
@72 the power to tax and regulating commerce including the health care system is in our constitution .... our founding fathers devised it...most Americans love it....you must not be a real American if you deny the power to tax, or regulate commerce.....and another document the declaration of independence spoke of the GENERAL WELFARE as being a purpose of government, so you must not believe in the Declaration of Independence. If you don't believe in our founding principles, traditions and values, maybe you would be more happy moving to Russia or someplace without any government at all, like parts of NW Pakistan or the upper Amazon basin, or maybe Antarctica.
I also showed you that Teddy Roosevelt thought the use of collectivist solutions should be decided on a case by case basis without restort to inflexible ideologies, and that an individual solution doesn't work when the individual is vulnerable to all sorts of modern scams and oppression.
When you're sick and in a hospital bed, you can't really fight an insurance company, amigo. When you have no insurer that's operating on the level you have no leverage as a consumer. The "collectisit" basis of the health insurance reform that is being proposed is well within the ideology favored by your own Republican party leader Teddy Roosevelt. Btw this type of solution is usually a net gain for you personally, too, you simply don't recognize that
--you already have socialized the cost of the uninsured, it's just more expensive to treat them in emergency rooms
--you don't really have insurance if you can't keep it if you change or lose your job. What kind of insurance is that? You think if you get fired you should lose your auto insurance? huh?
--if your employer goes bankrupt, you lose your insurance, too.
--the co pays usually banktrupt you if you have major medical issues like cancer, multiple heart attacks, and so on....all the ones where you're really not in a position to go comparison shopping in a "marketplace" by the way.
And btw those Danes, they're happier than us, too!
Ciao baby, we will Europeanize the USA as soon as possible, you can count on it---we might even have high speed trains, too, that'll make your anticollectivist toxins boil to the surface, won't it? but I bet if you ever had been to Europe you would be taking those high speed trains and if you got sick or injured you'd lap up the free health care like a hungry dog.
And you'd see things are pretty much pretty good over there.
And don't hit the Danes on defense my pal, they saved a lot more Jews from the Nazis early in the war than we did. We entered the war very late, in part due to the isolationism and obstructionism of the GOP, remember? Didn't want to get involved? Then we only fought to Berlin and let the East go to the commies, that was a cold calculation of how exhausted we were....not particularly noble, btw. So we had the advantage of being over here with an ocean between us and Hitler and we sat it out for a few years we almost lost Britain to the Nazis then we reluctantly came in and WITH the canadians the brits and the aussies, all of whom have the collectivist medicine you are so freaked about, we took back western europe from the nazis. So props to us, the Brits and the other Allies.
It wasn't us alone as you seem to think.
Anyway, I am sure you will be travelling to Denmark soon to see for yourself. They have a little island that's totally energy independent you might want to check out btw, they don't import a drop of oil!
Ciao amigo--
Posted by: Torture Lawyer on August 8, 2009 12:35 PMdenmark is a fabulous place. we could learn a lot from them, if only the conservatives weren't so anti-european, which is really a moronic stance if you think about it.
i lived in cpx for 6 months during a break from uni to work for a really good firm.
why would i leave the nw? i'm the one that likes it here. feel free to follow your own advise, since all you seem to want to do is whine and throw tantrums these days.
i didn't address the seiu video because it looks staged, i don't see thugs, i see morons wearing seiu shirts that are probably conservative operatives (ooh, i'm channeling rick's c.t. love!)
cynical:
denmark's conservatives aren't anti-liberal, anti-science, anti-government whackjobs like american conservatives.
denmark also has a multi party system and a higer quality of life than these united states.
Posted by: mike on August 8, 2009 02:56 PMBecause you said it was great living in Denmark. Coming back here to the States only to whine about how great living in Denmark was is moronic- but consistent with liberal ideology, I admit. If it's so great, stay there. Otherwise, quit trying to turn the U.S. into a europeanized socialist utopia.
How come the President and the Democrats pushing this boondoggle refuse to be in the fold? I find it hard to believe a Harvard educated man like Barack Obama is so obtuse he can't figure out why the American people are rejecting his vision (even while he's excluded himself and his family from it).
This isn't rocket science, simply common sense.Something the president and his handlers obviously are in short supply of.
Posted by: Rick D. on August 8, 2009 03:26 PMAnd then he goes on to pretend that the right is the only side being dishonest and using scare tactics and divisiveness, when he and the Dems do it just as much (and he did it in his own address).
This is what Obama does, regularly. Pathetic.
Cynical: You should be greatful folks have the guts to scream loud & clear.
Shrug. It takes more "guts" to discuss calmly and rationally with someone you oppose than it does to scream and yell at them.
But go ahead and "call them on it". Isn't that what you said??
No, it's not.
Anyway, Larsen is immaterial.
False, of course. He is my Congressman. He is my voice in the Congress. So of course he matters. His vote probably won't change anything, but THAT is immaterial. What matters is that my voice is heard, either to the Congressman, or through him.
I am not a birther; I am not a creationist; I am not anti-science; and I am a hell of a lot smarter than you. Please stop lying. Thanks.
Torturer: you must not be a real American if you deny the power to tax, or regulate commerce
No one denied that. Please stop lying. However, CREATING AND MANAGING HEALTH INSURANCE PLANS is not "regulating commerce." It is DOING commerce. Those are not the same thing. Obviously. (Well, obviously to everyone who isn't you, I guess.)
and another document the declaration of independence spoke of the GENERAL WELFARE as being a purpose of government
False. Have you ever actually read it?!
If you don't believe in our founding principles, traditions and values ...
Says the guy who thinks "general welfare" is in the DOI. What the DOI actually says is that the purpose of government is to secure our individual rights (and, of course, health care is not a right). That's it, period: the reason governments are instituted among men is to secure our individual rights. The End.
the use of collectivist solutions should be decided on a case by case basis without restort to inflexible ideologies
What you call "inflexible ideologies" I call "a Constitution that protects our individual liberties."
Anyway, Torturer, your twisted logic makes me tired. I can't bear to read more from you.