I haven't been following every moment of the Amanda Knox trial but I've followed it enough to be of the opinion that what happened in Perugia today was a tragedy.
Yes, there was some evidence that indicated Knox may have been involved. Chances are she isn't completely innocent but anyone accused of a crime rarely is. The travesty in my mind is that she and her boyfriend appear far from guilty and, even in Italy, the accused must be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Furthermore, there has been so much that has gone wrong with this trial that, had it been held in the US a mistrial would have been declared long ago. From the charges of abuse of power leveled against the prosecutor, Giuliano Mignini, to the contaminated evidence, there was just too much that didn't make sense.
Knox's defense attorney, Luciano Ghirga, referring to the fact that Knox could have been sentenced to life, said it well. "I am not at peace. They didn't have the courage to go all the way. It is a judicial compromise."
Our own Maria Cantwell also offered a theory that I considered as well. "I have serious questions about the Italian justice system and whether anti-Americanism tainted this trial."
I commend Senator Cantwell for having the courage to say what a lot of folks might not consider politically correct and for pledging to follow up through diplomatic channels so all that is possible may be done to resolve this in a way preferable to Knox.
And speaking of American political response to the verdict, I actually feel for President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton here. They will have a fine line to walk.
If they do nothing they're allowing the justice system of an ally to take its course. Considering the way Obama has dealt with the world (bowing to foreign leaders, etc.) this past year, this may be what happens. Maybe a good idea if they don't want to appear to be forcing America's will on Italy. A bad idea because they'd be allowing a US citizen to go to prison for 25 years for a crime it's uncertain she committed.
Of course, if they do intervene, the opposite is true. They'll be coming to the rescue of Knox but Italians might accuse America of trying to push its weight around and being conceited.
The best idea, no joke, would be to send someone like Bill Clinton (or maybe, and I say this with tongue-in-cheek, Jesse Jackson). He did well freeing the Americans in North Korea.
But let's hope that it doesn't need to come to this. Let's hope that Knox will be found not guilty on appeal and allowed to return to the United States by next Christmas.
Posted by MarkGriswold at December 04, 2009 04:30 PM | Email ThisIn response to michele, I think the strongest case for amanda is:
1. No motive
2. No previous criminal history
3. No reputable DNA found in crime scene. None at all on Meredith's body (unlike Rudy Guede)
I have been following the case, and I am devastated by the verdict. There is no evidence that she is innocent, because there is no alibi - there just is not any evidence that she is guilty, and the motive/story is the most far fetched I've ever heard.
Theory1: Guede alone did it:
He had a known history of crime and violence towards women. His DNA found all over Meridith's body and on her bra, bloody handprint and footprints. He is known to carry a knife. He fled to Germany, he was at the party Meridith was last seen at.
Theory2: Amanda convinced Sollecito and Guede to rape Meridith because Meridith complained about Knox's hygiene. The rape went to far so they had to kill Meridith to silence her. Knox and Sollecito clean up all evidence of their presence but manage to leave evidence of Guede.
The "evidence" here:
*Knox's "confession" - it was police who suggested that Lamumba was involved and told her that she must be forgetting because she was traumatized. After 40 hours she gave in and blamed Lamumba, startingf with the words "I confusedly remember..."
*Knife - kitchen knife that knox had used & had her DNA on it. Had no blood, and blood is near impossible to remove (harder than DNA.). The knife tested positive for a small amount of Kercher's DNA, but such a small amount it would not be considered significant in a US court. Anytime you test a piece of evidence there is a small chance that it will be contaminated, multiply that by the dozens of knives tested and it's not all that surprising. The knife could not have made 2 out of 3 of the stab wounds (all could have been made with a smaller knife) and the knife did not match a bloody knife-print at the crime scene. Also, the prosecution believes the decision to kill Meridith was spontaneous, making it hard to believe that a knife from Sollecito's home would have been used.
* bra clasp - the only evidence placing either of the defendants at the crime scene was a bra clasp that had been left on the floor for 6 weeks. It got so dirty that it changed color. It was found to have a small amount of Sollecito's DNA, too small for a retest. Remember Guede's DNA was all over the bra.
* Phones turned off during the whole night.
* Computer that might have provided an alibi fried by the prosecution
* Sloppy police work - touching the victim's wounds, using the same swab in multiple places, transporting evidence in shoeboxes, failing to change gloves, not collecting evidence for weeks ...
* Extreme character assassination, blamed for strange behavior
My theory based on frantic calls to her parents, etc. is that she ended up at the crime scene after the crime in a panic, and ended up accidentally tainting some of the evidence, and/ or foolishly trying to tamper with the evidence based on her guilty feelings of what she might have said that drove Guede to kill Kercher. And Guede was already convicted of the crime. It doesn't appear that Amanda was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
A fair trial in a formerly fascist state is unlikely. Look what they did to Oriana Fallaci. One more reason the US still is the best place to live.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 4, 2009 08:16 PMStupid Americans like Amanda Knox often seem to think they can go to other countries and do whatever they please, only to find out too late that neither the US Department of State nor anyone else can do nothing to help them when they are arrested and charged with a crime committed abroad.
Posted by: Frank L. on December 4, 2009 09:37 PMAmanda Knox should have known that before she went to Italy. Italy gave Amanda Knox all lawful aid and protections required before convicting her of the murder of a British national.
The US is unable to do anything about it.
Americans often seem to think they can go to other countries and do whatever they please and generally abuse their rights and the rights of others, only to find out too late that neither the US nor anyone else can do anything to help them when they are arrested and charged abroad.
Posted by: M.R. on December 4, 2009 09:45 PMYes - we are subject to foreign laws, however, MURDER is illegal in this country to. Your argument is irrelevant, Amanda is not claiming to not have known that it was illegal to murder someone...she is saying she didn't do it.
Italian law requires that she be proven guilty, even if you assume everything about her the prosecutor says is true, the only thing they proved is that she was a horny-stoned twenty year old. All of the rest of it was pure fantasy.
Posted by: Ricky R on December 4, 2009 09:57 PMYes - we are subject to foreign laws, however, MURDER is illegal in this country to. Your argument is irrelevant, Amanda is not claiming to not have known that it was illegal to murder someone...she is saying she didn't do it.
Italian law requires that she be proven guilty, even if you assume everything about her the prosecutor says is true, the only thing they proved is that she was a horny-stoned twenty year old. All of the rest of it was pure fantasy.
Posted by: Ricky R on December 4, 2009 09:57 PMYou can get any top politician involved, but she will not be released as the Italian judicial system is completely separated from government. No minister has the power to set her free. Only the president could grant a pardon, but anyway not if appeals are pending, and it is absolutely unlikely to grant a pardon if the best part of a sentence was not served.
Posted by: Luca L. on December 4, 2009 10:00 PMIt's telling to read how easy it is to bash the Italian justice system after the verdict. If you don't like or can't respect a country's laws, don't go there. Bad apples are everywhere, so stop defending them.
Rakesh Sharma, San Mateo, US
Posted by: Rakesh Sharma on December 4, 2009 10:02 PMIt seems that a lot of people commenting about this, either on this blog or others, are judging the criminal proceedings based on the standards of American law. Let's not forget, just because she's a US citizen, she's not entitled to be prosecuted by US laws. Italy is a sovereign nation that has the power to prosecute those it believes to have committed a crime in their country by using their laws. Just because US laws/procedural standards weren't used/met doesn't mean the opinion of the Italian judicial system and Italian jury should be discarded.
She and her family still have the appeals process. Let's hope Italy's version of the Court of Appeals can properly review the way the case was handled and come to the right conclusion, whatever that is.
Posted by: Tony on December 4, 2009 10:13 PMAnyways, am I the only one noticing the comment supporting her cite a lack of evidence, and the comments condemning provide none? As far as I've seen, the only things linking her to the crime are that she existed in the same house and she behaved strangely. I'm pretty sure most people think I'm acting in a contemporaneously different manner than they would in most cases, so I'm pretty much toast if I'm ever charged with anything in Italy or Britain. I just hope when they overturn my conviction in 20 years, that they don't charge me room and board.
Posted by: Submit on December 4, 2009 10:39 PMFunny how when the CIA throws a little water on a known terrorist's face to get him to talk liberals like Frank L. and Luca go nuts and cry "human rights!" but when the Italians hold a 22 year old girl without an attorney (as is allowed by law even in Italy) and force a confession they say the US shouldn't be telling Italy how to run their legal system and the girl deserves all she got and more. Pathetic.
Posted by: MarkGriswold on December 4, 2009 11:56 PMYou all seem to be ignoring the fact that a young girl dies. Justice must be served.
If I were you I would be thankful that Europe doesn't use the barbaric death penalty.
Posted by: AJC on December 5, 2009 12:48 AMLook: if she did it, I agree she belongs in jail. If she did what she is accused of here, she would be in jail also.
But if you're asking me to accept the premise that if our roles were reversed -- that an Italian girl, 20 years old, came here, and was convicted on (what appears to be) rather flimsy evidence, and sentenced to 20+ years in prison, that Europeans would just shrug and go about their business?
Please.
Posted by: jvon on December 5, 2009 01:22 AMRather than following the evidence to the killer they seemed determined to fit whatever flimsy evidence they could use to match this lurid tabloid version of the Miss Knox.
Posted by: Benji on December 5, 2009 02:53 AMThe police botched this investigation and were incredibly sloppy, and the prosecutor is a witch-hunting petty tyrant of a religious nut who I hope is convicted of all the things he himself is currently under investigation for. And this whole thing of not sequestering the jury for a whole year and allowing them to be exposed to the joke that is the European media (you guys think the American press is bad?) didn't help anything. Seriously, if this was an Italian girl in U.S. courts, a mistrial would already have been declared she would already be home in Italy and probably suing for malicious prosecution (especially if her prosecutor was like this crack-job).
And Luca L... much of the claimed "torture" at Guantanamo included such horrible acts as [gasp] keeping detainees awake for days on end. That's fine for enemy combatants your trying to get intelligence from. But keeping a 20 y/o girl up for days on end (40 hours straight interrogation + however long she had already been up) doesn't fly. I wouldn't call it torture, but it is the same thing the world is having a hissy fit over when we do it to people picked up on the battlefield.
Posted by: Mike H on December 5, 2009 06:27 AMFalse. We have no obligation of any sort to respect it.
are we so presumptious as to think fair trials are only prevalent in the good 'ol USA.
I saw no one imply any such thing. What people are saying is THIS trial was unfair.
Sorry folks we stick up for independent countries in practically all other matters and we must in this too
False.
I didn't follow the details closely, but I do know I never saw any evidence that she committed a crime of murder, or anything close to it (if there is such, I trust someone will point it out to me). None of us, including Obama, has any obligation to respect the verdict, if it is the wrong verdict, and we have every right to do anything we can to undermine it, perhaps short of invading Italy.
That doesn't mean we SHOULD. There's politics involved, and that may trump action. But there's no principle at work here that says we have any obligation to respect the verdict.
If you don't remember something because of drugs/partying or whatever from a night, say "I don't remember" and stick to your story.
hopefully Meredith Kercher family can move on and she can rest in peace.
Posted by: Sham Wow on December 5, 2009 09:29 AMMaybe she had something to do with that girl's murder, maybe she didn't. All I know is that a system that can lock someone up that long on what amounts to emotional pandering is so broken that nobody's fate should be entrusted to it.
And to those on this comment list who ask questions like "What are the strongest known details of the case which support that she was innocent?" ... my response would be that the prosecution is supposed to prove you are guilty rather than the police picking somebody up and the court requiring defendant to prove their innocence. Two totally different things.
Posted by: Chris on December 5, 2009 09:54 AMMaybe she had something to do with that girl's murder, maybe she didn't. All I know is that a system that can lock someone up that long on what amounts to emotional pandering is so broken that nobody's fate should be entrusted to it.
And to those on this comment list who ask questions like "What are the strongest known details of the case which support that she was innocent?" ... my response would be that the prosecution is supposed to prove you are guilty rather than the police picking somebody up and the court requiring defendant to prove their innocence. Two totally different things.
Posted by: Chris on December 5, 2009 09:55 AMMaybe she had something to do with that girl's murder, maybe she didn't. All I know is that a system that can lock someone up that long on what amounts to emotional pandering is so broken that nobody's fate should be entrusted to it.
And to those on this comment list who ask questions like "What are the strongest known details of the case which support that she was innocent?" ... my response would be that the prosecution is supposed to prove you are guilty rather than the police picking somebody up and the court requiring defendant to prove their innocence. Two totally different things.
Posted by: Chris on December 5, 2009 09:56 AMI heard Ann Bremner say that one option may be that Knox get extradited back to the US by some arrangement, for which she could not appeal and would have to serve most of the 26 year sentence. Not sure how that would work - couldn't we just let her free after a few years in an American prison ?
Posted by: KDS on December 5, 2009 06:52 PMNobody gets so stoned they'd forget a brutal murder like she claimed. Total B.S..
So while the news blathers and tries to make it seem like all of America is behind her, just remember that stoners in Seattle know better and we're calling BULLSHIT. Amanda isn't going to make the guilty verdict of those 23 moronic CIA kidnappers go away, no matter how hard Cantwell and her precious Hillary try.
Have fun, the propaganda has begun!
Posted by: Midnight Toker on December 5, 2009 08:15 PMDon't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Posted by: threeoddnumbers on December 5, 2009 08:15 PMI am also wondering why she would represent herself instead of her attorney in the closing arguments - their strategy was probably worse than the City of LA's prosecution against OJ...
Posted by: KDS on December 5, 2009 09:30 PMThat said, I'm not convinced one way or the other... even if the police bungled it and he's a nut, that doesn't mean she's innocent. I've just yet to see any real proof she's guilty.
Posted by: Mike H on December 6, 2009 04:05 PMAlso, when you were smoking pot, did you ever stay up for 40 hours with someone yelling in your ear the whole time, trying to force their version of a story on you?
Posted by: MarkGriswold on December 7, 2009 12:04 PMAmanda Knox's testimony was contradictory, which impressed enough of the jury unfavorably to convict her, along with her DNA found in the blood samples - circumstancial evidence.
I don't believe she committed murder here, but there was a coverup of the murder that she was involved in.
Posted by: KDS on December 7, 2009 01:44 PMThe biggest factor in the verdict of the Amanda Knox case was that Amanda was tried in the press before her hearing ever started. The jurors did interviews with the press and two of them told the press before the hearing ever began that they believed that Amanda Knox was guilty. A couple of these jurors fell asleep during crucial testimony for the defense!
The Prosecutor spent most of the case trying to destroy Amanda's character - basically calling her capable of murder because she had a boyfriend and occasionally smoked pot. In the US her "sex life" would have not been allowed as evidence. In Italy, the Prosecutor made it the major part of the case from day one, making up lies as he went along. They say that he went for the "sex" angle because his physical evidence was non-existent.
The knife that supposedly had Amanda's DNA was not the murder weapon and it was not found at the scene of the crime. The actual knife left behind an impression in the sheets and it shows that a much smaller knife was used. Also, the wound in the victims neck shows a smaller knife was used. This particular knife could very likely have the DNA of both girls because both would have used it - for cooking! This knife would have been laughed at in a court in the US as a joke! Amanda's attorney was never allowed to bring in any experts to look at or challenge this DNA "evidence". The traces of DNA that were found in a sink, were found in a sink that was Amanda's sink, she shared this bathroom with her roommate that was murdered.
There is absolutely no physical evidence that Amanda Knox was in any way involved with this crime and expert after expert has said this.
Amanda was put in a room for 7 hours to wait to talk to the police. During the wait she got up and started doing stretches because she was stiff from sitting for hours. An Italian cop told her "you look like a gymnast". He asked if she could do a cartwheel and she said yes and then did a cartwheel. Amanda Knox went shopping for underwear because she was not allowed back into her apartment to retrieve any of her personal belongings. She was video taped by the press as she was going around buying/replacing the items she could not retrieve from her apartment. So what did the press say? Amanda Knox does cartwheels at the police station and goes shopping for sexy underwear!
When he was originally questioned, the man that was convicted for this crime told the police that Amanda and her boyfriend were not involved and not in the house.
What about the detention and questioning of American author Douglas Preston by these very same Italian police?
A Prosecutor who is under investigation for misconduct in a previous murder case is allowed to try Amanda Knox. Why? Perhaps the corruption and information on this Prosecutor who is under investigation may come out over the course of the next year. What are we doing to examine this man's record?
The appeals process can take two years and it is unlikely that the higher Italian court will overturn the lower court. The US Government may be the only hope Amanda Knox has.
Do you understand that what happened to Amanda Knox could happen to any American kid traveling or studying abroad?
I do not know Amanda Knox, but I do feel it is our duty to stop this injustice. This young girl is innocent and what has happened to her is a slap in the face to every citizen of the United States.
At the very least, Amanda Knox did not receive a fair trail and any thinking person knows this.
Will Amanda Knox be helped or is it ok that her life and her families life was destroyed by a corrupt Italian judicial system?
The biggest factor in the verdict of the Amanda Knox case was that Amanda was tried in the press before her hearing ever started. The jurors did interviews with the press and two of them told the press before the hearing ever began that they believed that Amanda Knox was guilty. A couple of these jurors fell asleep during crucial testimony for the defense!
The Prosecutor spent most of the case trying to destroy Amanda's character - basically calling her capable of murder because she had a boyfriend and occasionally smoked pot. In the US her "sex life" would have not been allowed as evidence. In Italy, the Prosecutor made it the major part of the case from day one, making up lies as he went along. They say that he went for the "sex" angle because his physical evidence was non-existent.
The knife that supposedly had Amanda's DNA was not the murder weapon and it was not found at the scene of the crime. The actual knife left behind an impression in the sheets and it shows that a much smaller knife was used. Also, the wound in the victims neck shows a smaller knife was used. This particular knife could very likely have the DNA of both girls because both would have used it - for cooking! This knife would have been laughed at in a court in the US as a joke! Amanda's attorney was never allowed to bring in any experts to look at or challenge this DNA "evidence". The traces of DNA that were found in a sink, were found in a sink that was Amanda's sink, she shared this bathroom with her roommate that was murdered.
There is absolutely no physical evidence that Amanda Knox was in any way involved with this crime and expert after expert has said this.
Amanda was put in a room for 7 hours to wait to talk to the police. During the wait she got up and started doing stretches because she was stiff from sitting for hours. An Italian cop told her "you look like a gymnast". He asked if she could do a cartwheel and she said yes and then did a cartwheel. Amanda Knox went shopping for underwear because she was not allowed back into her apartment to retrieve any of her personal belongings. She was video taped by the press as she was going around buying/replacing the items she could not retrieve from her apartment. So what did the press say? Amanda Knox does cartwheels at the police station and goes shopping for sexy underwear!
When he was originally questioned, the man that was convicted for this crime told the police that Amanda and her boyfriend were not involved and not in the house.
What about the detention and questioning of American author Douglas Preston by these very same Italian police?
A Prosecutor who is under investigation for misconduct in a previous murder case is allowed to try Amanda Knox. Why? Perhaps the corruption and information on this Prosecutor who is under investigation may come out over the course of the next year. What are we doing to examine this man's record?
The appeals process can take two years and it is unlikely that the higher Italian court will overturn the lower court. The US Government may be the only hope Amanda Knox has.
Do you understand that what happened to Amanda Knox could happen to any American kid traveling or studying abroad?
I do not know Amanda Knox, but I do feel it is our duty to stop this injustice. This young girl is innocent and what has happened to her is a slap in the face to every citizen of the United States.
At the very least, Amanda Knox did not receive a fair trail and any thinking person knows this.
Will Amanda Knox be helped or is it ok that her life and her families life was destroyed by a corrupt Italian judicial system?
Read "The Monster of Florence." It was written a few years before the Amanda Knox case about the same prosecution team.
Amazing read that really exposes some cultural issues that affect their legal system.
Posted by: johnny on December 9, 2009 09:54 AM