December 05, 2009
Global Warming Update (LII)

State government faces a $2.6 billion budget shortfall, but instead of staying home to figure out how to cut spending and not raise taxes, Mrs. Gregoire is jetting off on a junket to Copenhagen for the 40,584 tons of CO2 Global Warming Holiday Festival. Oddly, The Olympian news report on Gregoire's carbon-sacrificing holiday didn't ask her to comment on Climategate.

Not that one would expect Gregoire to be critical of the warmists. After all, while the East Anglia folk were hiding the decline in global temperatures, Mrs. Gregoire was hiding the decline in Washington's finances.

Ironically, as the Copenhagen Warmist Worship Pilgrimage opens on Monday, Seattle is forecast to enjoy a record low temperature (for Dec. 7) of 21°

Then again, that would not be inconsistent with the latest prediction du jour from the settled science of climate change; i.e. that global warming could lead us into a sudden ice age.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 05, 2009 01:42 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Awful! The governor is going on a trip to promote trade within the state!

Posted by: demo kid on December 5, 2009 01:44 PM
2. Awful! The governor is going on a trip to promote businesses in the state! And the state isn't paying for them to go! Hideous!

Please, Stefan. The dog's breakfast you've posted here is below even your low standards.

Posted by: demo kid on December 5, 2009 01:48 PM
3. Bugger. Stupid miss with the "post" button.

Posted by: demo kid on December 5, 2009 01:49 PM
4. leave it to one hypocrite to stick up for another hypocrite.nice try cRAT punk

Posted by: jtm371 on December 5, 2009 01:52 PM
5. @4: Leave it to one conservative idiot to ignore what I just said.

Posted by: demo kid on December 5, 2009 02:28 PM
6. cRat punk
your right you like that a play on words a pun.i miss read your post my bad.now lets see if you can be honest.would you condemn algore for his carbon footprint private jets huge mansion and huge houseboat.lets see if you can follow thru with the rest of the hypocrites.just remember i admit i was wrong about your post.you were RIGHT.

Posted by: jtm371 on December 5, 2009 02:49 PM
7. The governor is doing what she can to help prop up the consensus. Without her help Obama will fail to convince the Chinese and Indians to forgo prosperity to save the planet.

She like DC and many others on the left "believe" in global warming. No amount of "hiding the decline" will convince them otherwise.

No clear evidence of a manufactured consensus will pierce the veil of certainty that 2,500 IPCC "climate scientists" provide.

No fudge factors or cherry picking are needed to sway our governor, she has faith in the infallibility of Al Gore.

Posted by: deadwood on December 5, 2009 02:50 PM
8. @6: From the news report from The Olympian that Stefan linked to:

Gregoire's chief of staff, Jay Manning, said the trip is key to the state's economic recovery. He said it's important to be at an international gathering where "green energy" companies are present.

"There are a number of Washington businesses that will be there and a number of businesses we want to become Washington businesses," he said in an interview.

The trip is sponsored by the Georgetown Climate Center, which operates out of the Georgetown University law school and came into being a few years ago at the behest of activist states such as California and Washington, Manning said. The center and a nonprofit Chicago group, The Climate Registry, are splitting the expenses for Gregoire and two staff members, Janice Adair of the Department of Ecology and Keith Phillips of the governor's Office of Financial Management, Manning said.

Questions? The taxpayer isn't footing the bill for her to go, and there's an economic / business reason for her to attend. Stefan's doing nothing but pointlessly whining, and you're just tossing around insults like an idiot.

Posted by: demo kid on December 5, 2009 02:55 PM
9. cRat punk
see you can't please a moonbat i tell you i was wrong and you were RIGHT and you still have to be nasty.come on lighten up pour yourself a glass of white wine your choice and enjoy life.GOD BLESS!

Posted by: jtm371 on December 5, 2009 03:01 PM
10. SPFA,

You know, Gregoire could do a lot better for business if she'd address a lot of the problems with the Governmental interference in business here in the State. Rather than trying to recruit new businesses here, how about retaining those we already have?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 5, 2009 03:26 PM
11. Shanghai Dan, that would be asking too much of her. Getting government to get out of the way for business, that would be like asking a liberal to commit suicide, or think.

Posted by: Petegoud on December 5, 2009 03:59 PM
12. Whoa hey---something is rotten in Denmark. Ha, Stefan, loved your second paragraph.

And, go Huskies!! Way to stomp and kick Cal all over the field in the first half of today's game.

Posted by: Michele on December 5, 2009 04:14 PM
13. Rather than trying to recruit new businesses here, how about retaining those we already have?

Why not do both?

According to the article:

"There are a number of Washington businesses that will be there and a number of businesses we want to become Washington businesses," he said in an interview."

Why do you hate business, Dan?

Posted by: scottd on December 5, 2009 04:15 PM
14. Mrs. Gregoire, Al Gore and the majority of the World Leaders/Statist Elites are not about to give up the Global Warming Scam so easily. This Scam is a Phony game-play to obtain not only Trillions of Dollars but, to Control/Enslave and further empower themselves over the peoples of the World. These people are all part of a Criminal Gang of World proportions. Only, the Dumbest Blind Fools will continue to believe in this Fraud. Only, the Liberals are capable of such abject Stupidity!

Posted by: Daniel on December 5, 2009 04:55 PM
15. Unfortunately for Gregoire, these businesses she thinks will be there may have already heard how she stuck a finger in Boeing's eye during the last strike by the union.

Posted by: Michele on December 5, 2009 04:57 PM
16. dumbo, it's not surprising that such a massive waste of resources has no impact on your ilk when the one doing the wasting is a fellow leftist.

After all, your non-condemnation of that rank hypocrite LieGore speaks to that.... and GOD knows what we would do without Queenie going over there to, how you so disingenuously put it, "promote" trade with this state (something she could have done at any time, instead of now)

But, it's always different when a leftist sbuses their office, right, dumbo?

Posted by: hinton on December 5, 2009 05:06 PM
17. Call me crazy but how is attending a climate change summit in Copenhagen going to promote business in Washington State?

Perhaps demo kid can outline just what specific businesses Gregoire will be attracting to our corner of the planet as a result of this conference.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 5, 2009 05:23 PM
18. Scottd,

I'm not the Governor that drove Boeing and others out of the State. Why don't you ask her?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 5, 2009 05:50 PM
19. Perhaps Scottd can join demo kid in telling us what specific businesses Gregoire will lure to Washington on her trip to Copenhagen.

I'm not exactly going to hold my breath!

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 5, 2009 06:04 PM
20. One must wonder if the staff at the Seattle Times read their own paper...for example, full page ad this week by Whistler/Blackcomb announcing it received 18 feet - 18 - feet of snow in November. A record. Also, this week a news item about the Atlantic hurricane season just ended without a single hurricane - nada not one hurricane making landfall. Recall several years ago a bad hurricane season was global warming in action!! Oh, and the item about Houston's snowfall this week!!! No doubt caused by global warming...

Posted by: get.harvey on December 5, 2009 06:48 PM
21. We all know Gregoire can't be trusted any farther than we can throw her. Now on to global warming - the lamestream media are the villains for refusing to cover it and hoping it will go away. Sen. Boxer things that the whistleblowers should be prosecuted for hacking into computers and obtaining this significant evidence - may she get her a$$ kicked out of the US Senate come next November.

(The post below from Powerline - sums this up pretty well)

"Climate alarmists are trying to impoverish the world, ostensibly in order to cool it down but really, in my view, to achieve the liberal holy grail of government control over everything. The scandal comes along at a critical moment to cast doubt on whether the "scientists" behind the global warming scare are doing science at all. Rather, their own words suggest that they are engaging in a combination of politics and fraud.

The liberal media have studiously averted their eyes from the scandal--a common posture for them these days--but, nevertheless, Americans are deeply skeptical about the warmist enterprise. Scott Rasmussen finds that the liberals' claim that the scientific argument about global warming is over is roundly rejected by the American people:

Most Americans (52%) believe that there continues to be significant disagreement within the scientific community over global warming. [T]he latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 25% of adults think most scientists agree on the topic. Twenty-three percent (23%) are not sure.

So, by more than two to one, Americans believe the debate is alive and well. Not only that, by a stunning 59 percent to 26 percent margin--also better than two to one--Americans say that it is either very likely (35%) or somewhat likely (24%) that some scientists have falsified research data to support their own theories and beliefs about global warming.

What's curious is that most people aren't basing this judgment on the Climategate scandal, which fewer than half of Americans have followed. (No wonder, since if you're relying on network news and your local newspaper, your chance of knowing about the story is probably zero.) Rather, while Climategate is no doubt a factor, most Americans seem to be relying on their innate anti-authoritarian bent.

It is perhaps a sad fact that most Americans are skeptical of what they are told by politicians, businessmen, college professors and other supposed authority figures. An extreme case is the United Nations: Rasmussen finds that only 22% of Americans consider the UN to be "a reliable source of information on global warming." So much for the IPCC "consensus" on climate change.

Whether we would be better off if we were a more trusting people is an interesting question. In this particular case, however, the skepticism is amply justified."

Posted by: KDS on December 5, 2009 07:17 PM
22. Don't watch this!


Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 5, 2009 08:12 PM
23. One of if not THE best comprehensive summary of ClimateGate is in a Weekly Standard piece by Steven Hayward titled ''Scientists Behaving Badly''.
It is sked for hardcopy pub on 14 Dec 2009, but can be found now at:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/017/300ubchn.asp

Above piece became the subject of a separate thread on WUWT, after I first noticed it on realclearpolitics.com and pointed to it in prior WUWT comments. The entire article is superb, but I especially like the last line:
''Someone needs to break the bad news to the players that it's closing time for the climate horror show.''

IAC, this article is worth not only reading a couple times, but save-local on disc.

SIDEBAR: Is there a volume-of-posts point where ''demo kid'' can be considered obnoxious enough that he can be banished ??... It's getting to where I pretty much jump to the end of each comment 1st, and if it's by demo kid I just jump over it. A couple I can tolerate, but if the demo kid volume on each thread gets high enough it gets more than a little annoying.
But as always: Final call is up to the moderator(s).

Posted by: Methow Ken on December 5, 2009 08:27 PM
24. The alleged scientific argument about global warming has been tainted and has been exposed to be a political argument. The leftwing progressives have overstepped that boundary of truth and poisoned the well.

Posted by: KDS on December 5, 2009 08:30 PM
25. Can we enlist MikeBoyScout to the list of liberals we've asked to tell us just what businesses Chris Gregoire will attract to Washington State when she travels to Copenhagen?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 5, 2009 08:31 PM
26. @25 Bill Cruchon on December 5, 2009 08:31 PM,

"Can we enlist MikeBoyScout to the list of liberals we've asked to tell us just what businesses Chris Gregoire will attract to Washington State when she travels to Copenhagen?"

Well Bill, if you mean by liberal someone who can look something up for others either too lazy, incompetent, or more interested in making unsupported points about matters that are trivial, sure. Unfortunately being a liberal and not an ACORN, Climategate wingnut, I'm not capable of predicting the future, so I can only offer you the list of businesses attending.

Confirmed participants include:

Muhtar Kent, CEO, Coca Cola Company; Dr. Gro Harlem Brundtland, Former Prime Minister of Norway and Special Envoy on Climate Change for the United Nations; Dr. R. K. Pachauri, Chairman, IPCC; Tom Zeller, Jr., Editor, Green Inc. Blog, The New York Times; Tracy R. Wolstencroft, Managing Director, Global Head of Environmental Markets, Goldman Sachs; Peter Head, Director, Arup; James E. Rogers, Chairman, President and CEO, Duke Energy; Anders Eldrup, President & CEO, DONG Energy; Dominic Wain, Senior Director, Head Environmental Initiatives, World Economic Forum; Carsten Bjerg, Group President, Grundfos; Ray Johnson, Senior Vice President and Chief Technology Officer, Lockheed Martin Corporation; Kevin McKinley, Deputy Secretary-General, International Organization for Standardization ISO; Dr. Henrik O. Madsen, CEO, DNV; Nick Main, Global Managing Partner Climate Change and Sustainability, Deloitte; Tim Wirth, former US Senator and President of the UN Foundation; Jean-Pascal Tricoire, CEO, Schneider Electric; Christina Dell'Amore, Editor, National Geographic News; Li Xiaolin, Chairwoman and CEO, China Power International; Georg Kell, Executive Director, United Nations Global Compact; John Carey, Senior Correspondent, Business Week; Louisa Bojesen, Anchor, CNBC; Jakob Simonsen, Director, UNDP; Dr. Janet Peace, V.P. Markets and Business Strategy, Pew Center on Global Climate Change; Jeroen van der Veer, Former Chief Executive, Royal Dutch Shell Marc Gunther, Contributing Editor, FORTUNE Magazine; Klaus Holse Andersen, Area Vice President of Western Europe and Corporate Vice President, Microsoft; Mark Foster, Group Chief Executive Global Markets and Management Consulting, Accenture; Rawya Mansour, Chairperson, Ramsco for Sustainable Development Projects


Now, can I add you to the list of folks who won't be writing these corporations letters on how they are wasting their shareholder's money?

Yep, thought so.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 5, 2009 09:27 PM
27. I didn't watch it. As soon as I heard to tone of voice I knew where that was going. Haha. Wot a swot.

Posted by: GloriaGB on December 5, 2009 09:28 PM
28. Excuse me, THE tone of voice.

Posted by: GloriaGB on December 5, 2009 09:31 PM
29. @27 You know what they say about leading horses to water.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 5, 2009 09:32 PM
30. Maybe if it didn't sound like such a precious snot....was that you???

Posted by: GloriaGB on December 5, 2009 09:54 PM
31. "but instead of staying home to figure out how to cut spending and not raise taxes,"

"Gregoire will put out her budget Wednesday, then will leave Dec. 11 for Copenhagen; she is scheduled to be back Dec. 17."

"House Republican Deputy Leader Joel Kretz of Wauconda said the state has a budget crisis, and Gregoire's proposed spending cuts likely will raise questions the governor should be in town to answer."

Because telephone and e-mail technology as methods of asking and answering questions regardless of geographical proximity are a hoax?? a trick?? a travesty??

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 5, 2009 11:30 PM
32. Isn't this fun. The original claim from demo kid is that the reason Gregoire was going to Copenhagen was to promote business in Wahington State....see the comments in #2 above: " The governor is going on a trip to promote businesses in the state!" I've never heard that one before when politicians travel!

I asked for some specific businesses she was going to attract. Seems to me to be a very odd thing to be doing at a climate summit

MikeBoyScout posted a swell list of companies and others that will attending the summit. Perhaps Gregoire might entice Microsoft to establish a branch here in Washington.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 05:18 AM
33. MikeBS,

Your list at 26? Here is the list of businesses that do not have a presence in the State of Washington:


Most on that list are Government types, retired business types, or people with other utilities (which cannot compete here because of State mandates and monopolies granted). The few actual business leaders of businesses that can operate in WA represent businesses already operating IN Washington.

Where are the businesses she's going to court?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 6, 2009 05:51 AM
34. @32 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 05:18 AM,
@33 Shanghai Dan on December 6, 2009 05:51 AM,

Your consistent begging the question is tedious.
Surely the incomplete list provided and cited has gaps with the published WA Green-Economy Jobs Initiative, but rather than understanding the topic and the issues you just troll.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 06:49 AM
35. @32-33: Hmmm... the governor is not going on the taxpayers' dime, and this is going to raise the profile of the state with respect to green energy initiatives. That's pretty much it. I'll be more than happy to discuss the costs and benefits afterwards, but I'd be fascinated to hear your opinions about where SPECIFICALLY she should be.

Perhaps you think that she should be addressing the Bowling Proprietors' Association of America instead?

Posted by: demo kid on December 6, 2009 06:58 AM
36. dk is focusing on the trip and Gregoire because that helps him ignore the mountain of evidence and voices from all sides that are showing Climategate as a huge scandal.

Only the highly partisan will continue to back this cause. And polls show that will only hurt their party. We should be thanking Gregoire for the negative PR this brings for WA Dems.

Any time dk calls something "whining," you know it is on the mark.

Posted by: Jeff B. on December 6, 2009 07:54 AM
37. @36 Jeff B. on December 6, 2009 07:54 AM

"dk is focusing on the trip and Gregoire ..."
Really Jeff? It is demo kid who introduced the topic of Gregoire and the trip?
Funny, I thought that was the subject of Stefan's post.

But if you are interested in discussing "mountain of evidence" regarding Climategate, let's do so.

I've a couple of questions regarding the "mountain of evidence".

1) How many years of e-mails and documents were hacked/stolen/retrieved from the Climatic Research Unit - University of East Anglia?

2) What is the number/quantity of e-mails and documents?

3) How many of the e-mails show "evidence" of 'a scandal?

Let's start there. No worries if you can't actually discuss "mountain of evidence", because then you can just rail on people who can.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 08:39 AM
38. @36: dk is focusing on the trip and Gregoire because that helps him ignore the mountain of evidence and voices from all sides that are showing Climategate as a huge scandal.

A "scandal"? Bull. This is manufactured indignation by deniers, not genuine scientific concern. The more you jabber on about it, the more it seems like paranoid conspiracy fodder and less about genuine criticism.

And in terms of the "highly partisan" positions, it seems like only the deniers are "highly partisan" in the US. Last time I checked, it's the hard-core conservative Republicans taking the denialist stance, while folks interested in actually working on the problem are in fact the bipartisan group.

But that distracts from the point! If this is not being paid for by state taxpayers, what is the objection? Is there some meeting of bowling alley managers that you'd prefer the governor to be visiting instead?

Posted by: demo kid on December 6, 2009 09:50 AM
39. dk
The governor should have higher priorities right now, considering the state of the budget and the timing of this boondoggle. The trip is just a feel good photo op for the lefty crowd. If the gov. could put herself "above" such PR boondoggles until the state budget is figured out most taxpayers would appreciate it.

Didn't she just drop the bombshell that our taxes will rise? Good time to leave town, right.

Posted by: zip on December 6, 2009 10:15 AM
40. @39 zip on December 6, 2009 10:15 AM,

Shorter: "I got nothing."

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 10:18 AM
41. @39: The governor should have higher priorities right now, considering the state of the budget and the timing of this boondoggle.

You're missing the point, too.

First, if the taxpayers AREN'T paying for it and the legislature isn't in session, how is it a "boondoggle"? Second, where specifically could the governor be during this time that would make everything all better?

Would you prefer that she goes shilling around the country for Democratic Senate candidates that she likes, instead?

Posted by: demo kid on December 6, 2009 10:22 AM
42. Mikebs - yeah, show me the e-mails and how few of them actually said anything. All the right-wingers at the UN are investigating them too. It's just like Enron, of all those numbers, only a few were fudged by the accountants, big deal!
Gregoire is going to Copenhagen to secure green jobs while our real, not government funded, jobs are leaving the state.

Jeezus, talk about denial.

Posted by: dan on December 6, 2009 10:30 AM
43. @42 dan on December 6, 2009 10:30 AM,

Does the stupid burn as it comes out? Cuz it hurts to read it.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 10:33 AM
44. @42: Gregoire is going to Copenhagen to secure green jobs while our real, not government funded, jobs are leaving the state.

Well then, answer the question! Where could she go? Should she get on her knees at Boeing headquarters?

Posted by: demo kid on December 6, 2009 10:44 AM
45. yes

Posted by: dan on December 6, 2009 10:53 AM
46. dk and mbs,
The manure has already hit the fan on our state budget, the gov. has already dropped the tax increase bombshell, the budget will be submitted to the legislature, and the highest priority for the next week plus is to take off for Copenhagen?.....Give me a break.

The shallow purpose of the trip is pretty lame compared to the "governing" that needs to happen with this budget. You think it's responsible to just throw the budget at the legislature and run away the next day for a PR trip? Many (except the hopelessly partisan) would prefer that she attempt to "make the case" to affected business owners or others who will be hurt by the upcoming tax increase (many are reportedly about to lose their sales tax exemption) rather than ___(whatever you think will actually be accomplished in Copenhagen)____.

Posted by: zip on December 6, 2009 10:58 AM
47. @46 zip on December 6, 2009 10:58 AM,

"You think it's responsible to just throw the budget at the legislature"

Is that what the Governor is doing? Really?
Care to tell us when the Governor is required to submit the budget? When the legislature is required to pass a budget?

"Give me a break"
Your brain is already on one.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 11:03 AM
48. Zippy et al,

Look on the bright side... this trip to Copenhagen by the evil twice beaten Gregoire could be just the ticket. She could be so scared by the laser beam analysis of her budget but such smart folks as you that she quits the governorship and never returns.

Others have quit. :-p


Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 11:22 AM
49. Not one of you liberals has suggested a single new business or industry that Gregoire might attract to Washington State as a result of her trip to Copenhangen. Yet demo kid says that is the entire reason she is going.

What will it be? A farm of windmills off the coast? A factory that produces those stupid mercury filled lightbulbs? A plant that makes those ridiculous "Smart Cars" that barely get better mileage that our old Toyota?

You leftists can't answer a specific question. It is truly enjoyable to watch you do the dance when we try to pin you down.


Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 11:53 AM
50. Comedytime: maybe it was hitler behind global warming?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGdbHW9Nlds

Posted by: Arnold on December 6, 2009 12:38 PM
51. The only industries that are expected to take advantage of WA and the rest of USA after c(r)ap&tax and Copenhagen are Chinese and Indian ones that are exempt from both.

That's how its designed to work too. It never was about CO2 "pollution" - It's always been about redistribution of wealth.

Posted by: deadwood on December 6, 2009 12:53 PM
52. Do we all agree that "following the money" is a useful exercise in the quest for answers about government policy?

In that spirit I challenge the various genius contributors on this list (you know who you are) to answer two questions.

1) Which company lobbied Bush I most heavily to sign the Kyoto Protocol?

2) Which company sponsored the Montreal Protocol which made the use of CFCs illegal in 1995?

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 12:55 PM
53. @52 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 12:55 PM,

In the spirit of x-mas, I'll play wingnut challenge.

"1) Which company lobbied Bush I most heavily to sign the Kyoto Protocol?"

a) George Herbert Walker Bush served from 1989 to 1993.
b) George Walker Bush served from 2001 to 2009.
c) On 12 November 1998, Vice President Al Gore signed the Kyoto protocol.

My answer is ..... ACORN

how'd i do???

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 01:13 PM
54. MikeBS,

If she's going to bring businesses here, then what businesses are they? The list you offered doesn't show anything new... But we do know that Gregoire has successfully run Boeing out of here, and is working on doing the same to other businesses...

Slavery Party Failed Abortion,

Is it about jobs? Gregoire is going to a climate conference to get jobs? That was your contention...

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 6, 2009 01:31 PM
55. @54 Shanghai Dan on December 6, 2009 01:31 PM,
You couldn't be bothered to follow the link I provided you specifically, Dan, at 34?
Or maybe you just can't understand what is written?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 01:36 PM
56. I've been asking demo kid and MikeBoyScout that question, Dan.

They dodge the question, bob and weave, and try to change the very subject they themselves brought up.

The truth of course is that Gregoire's trip to Copenhagen likely won't generate a penny of new business for the state.

Copenhagen is simply an opportunity for the liberals of the world to demonstrate what phonies they are by generating a massive amount of carbon. Why don't they simply have a huge teleconference and set an example? Why does Obama fly his carbon spewing 747 somewhere nearly every day?

It's because they don't believe the whole scam. Gore has already chickened out as the "climate change" hoax unravels. He's cancelled his scheduled appearance in Copenhagen.

Copenhagen might be he last big party for these people who have done everything they can to control how we live by promoting this made-up crisis.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 01:52 PM
57. Damn Bill!!

"The truth of course is that Gregoire's trip to Copenhagen likely won't generate a penny of new business for the state."

Why are you conceding the truth that it may?
We've nearly convinced them all that attempting to get jobs in Copenhagen is less effective than sitting in Olympia hoping jobs magically appear.
Get that comment deleted before the liberals see it.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 01:59 PM
58. "Five states Massachusetts, Washington, Maryland, Delaware and New Jersey are leading the United States' transformation into a global, entrepreneurial and knowledge- and innovation based new economy, according to The 2008 State New Economy Index. Washington ranks second among all states."

I'm with Bill, Dan, Zip and all. We should stand pat. No need for a governor to attend the biggest conference of the year on this stuff.
Gregoire should stay home and do other unspecified priorities.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 02:21 PM
59. What jobs MikeBoyScout?

You and demo kid can blather all you want about, "The United States' transformation into a global, entrepreneurial and knowledge- and innovation based new economy".

That just a bunch of pie in the sky babble. Like "wind and solar".

I am asking you to be specific, as hard as that might be for you. What companies, what jobs will Gregoire bring back from Copenhagen?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 02:45 PM
60. @59 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 02:45 PM

"That just a bunch of pie in the sky babble. Like "wind and solar"."

"Boeing-Spectrolab has developed a solar cell that can convert almost 41 percent of the sunlight that strikes it into electricity, the latest step in trying to drop the cost of solar power."

"The OPEL Mk-I uses state of the art triple junction Boeing-Spectrolab solar cells that provide more than twice the conversion efficiency of conventional silicon solar cells. The OPEL Mk-I uses a dual element refractive concentrator technology that minimizes optical losses resulting in higher energy output and less area than conventional silicon flat plate panels."

You keep setting them up Bill, and I'll keep knocking them down. :-)

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 03:00 PM
61. MBS (aka Genius #2) @ 53,

Wrong.

Obviously, you have no clue.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 03:12 PM
62. @61 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 03:12 PM.

Yes, Obviously.
No obtuse you.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 03:15 PM
63. @59: I am asking you to be specific, as hard as that might be for you. What companies, what jobs will Gregoire bring back from Copenhagen?

I have no answer for that. This isn't a standard trade mission where the state is footing the bill for the governor to stand in a booth and pitch Washington to Chinese firms. Shoulders will be rubbed, connections made, and we'll see what happens. But again, THE STATE IS NOT PAYING FOR THIS TRIP. If this were taking her away from sensitive budget negotiations or disaster relief, then you might have a case... but this is just denialists shoving their heads in the sand.

Then again, no one has been able to really answer my question: where specifically should she be going? Or, more precisely, what could she be doing that's being pushed aside by this?

Seems like there are no answers here... just a whole lot of bitching and moaning.

Posted by: demo kid on December 6, 2009 03:42 PM
64. #60 MikeBoyScout...In case it escaped your notice Boeing is already here, though over taxation and the Machinists Union are driving the company away.

You cannot answer the question posed. Once again I'll ask it ; What new business is Gregoire going to recruit to Washington State while she is in Copenhagen?

You might also explain while you are at it what the "OPEL Mk-I" actually is and what are its practical applications.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 03:44 PM
65. @63 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 03:44 PM

What do you care about the OPEL Mk-I?
Solar is "pie in the sky babble", no?
Plenty of power generation technologies exceed 41% efficiency, no??

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 03:53 PM
66. She could stay home demo kid and make contact via the computer technology available to us here in the 21st century. Instead she's doing what all these other phony climate change hand wringers are doing and flying in a carbon emitting jet airplane.

As I've pointed out, Obama does this nearly every day. There is hardly a day of the week when Obama doesn't fly his 747 somewhere. You know global warming is a crock, so does Obama, Gregoire, and Al Gore. Now America does too as polls increasingly are reporting.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 03:58 PM
67. @66 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 03:58 PM,

There we go Bill! The Governor of the State of Washington should boycott the COP15 because commercial jet flight is bad. Nothing would be better for the state of Washington's economy or the state budget than for the Governor to bash commercial jets.
BRAVO!

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 04:05 PM
68. Why you people waste your time arguing with the liberal crap who troll this site is beyond me.

You can't reason with them. You can't converse with them. You'd get further talking to a freaking brick.

Ignore them.

Posted by: jimg on December 6, 2009 04:17 PM
69. "You can't reason"

agreed.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 04:24 PM
70. It doesn't exactly take a whole lot of time to refute these folks jimg.

I think it is useful for those who read and perhaps do not comment to observe how liberals twist, dodge, avoid answering direct questions, and sometimes simply tell lies.

I'm really not arguing with them at all. I am exposing them for who they are. I ask them direct questions. Liberals don't like that a bit. That is hardly a waste of time.

Posted by: bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 04:28 PM
71. This has got to be as good as it gets.

MikeBoyScout at #67: There we go Bill! The Governor of the State of Washington should boycott the COP15 because commercial jet flight is bad. Nothing would be better for the state of Washington's economy or the state budget than for the Governor to bash commercial jets.
BRAVO!"

As a liberal are you not really concerned about "climate change" MikeBoyScout? What about the melting polar icecaps, the polar bears stranded on icebergs, the rising seas? Do you mean it's ok for us to drive to work instead of riding bicycles in the pouring rain, or waiting at inner city bus stops with nasty looking thugs and shouting crazy people? I could drive every day for years and not emit as much carbon as Obama does in a week. He sure sets a great example, doesn't he?

If you, and Gore, Obama, and Gregoire were really concerned about "climate change" you'd be busy finding ways to curtail the use of jets that eat fossil fuels and blast toxic fumes into the air. Your environmentalist heroes would be conducting this conference via teleconferencing technology and setting an example. Instead they are all rushing to Copenhagen on fossil fuel consuming carbon spewing aircraft.

You'd find "alternatives" to air travel and new innovative "green" businesses which would take the place of aircraft factories.

I think you are a very confused individual.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 04:59 PM
72. @71 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 04:59 PM,

"You'd find "alternatives" to air travel and new innovative "green" businesses which would take the place of aircraft factories"

That's true. You wouldn't do what WA is doing regarding Biofuel-powered aircraft. Better to shitcan commercial aerospace.

That's ok, you are exposing me. :-D

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 05:19 PM
73. @71 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 04:59 PM

"waiting at inner city bus stops with nasty looking thugs"

Funny how that statement just slipped in there.
Cuz at first glance, it wouldn't seem relevant to the discussion.

That's ok, you are exposing me. :-D

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 05:32 PM
74. @66: She could stay home demo kid and make contact via the computer technology available to us here in the 21st century. Instead she's doing what all these other phony climate change hand wringers are doing and flying in a carbon emitting jet airplane.

Now that's a reasonable criticism, and I agree. On the other hand, this is how things still get done at high levels. Just as we cannot suddenly abandon coal and oil and natural gas right away, or junk our cars and ride bicycles, I can give some leeway to the older ways of organizing and making policy.

I don't think that it's right, any more than I think that having low CAFE standards is "right". But it's a process, and the entire system needs to adjust.


@70: I think it is useful for those who read and perhaps do not comment to observe how liberals twist, dodge, avoid answering direct questions, and sometimes simply tell lies.

And I think it's fascinating myself to see how conservatives love to lie when it's convenient, and then fall back on some pathetic victimization complex.

Posted by: demo kid on December 6, 2009 06:07 PM
75. Well MikeBoy Scout at #73 I worked in the inner city for a lot of years. I rode those busses. I stood at bus stops in the dark with people who looked as though they'd like to stick a knife in you. You would certainly not let any woman you know do what I did.

Of course my comment regarding riding the bus is relevant. It's impractical, it's dangerous, it's time consuming. Liberals like Obama, Gore, Greg Nickels, and our new mayor McGinn push these silly notions. Do you think McGinn is going to take his wife out to dinner downtown on the bus? Or on his bicycle? To further insult our intelligence they jump on airplanes and produce a bigger carbon footprint than most of will generate in our entire lives. Yeah, I think that is quite relevant.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 06:11 PM
76. I really wish Gregoire would explain her reasoning for her soon-to-be-presented budget, and perhaps instituting a bottom-up review of the bail system in light of the murder of 4 policemen a few weeks ago...

And of course dealing with the worst traffic in the nation...

There's plenty to do here rather than traipsing around the world in support of a fallacious, fraudulent climate hoax.

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 6, 2009 06:16 PM
77. @74 demo kid on December 6, 2009 06:07 PM,

"how conservatives love to lie"
Not true. More accurately many liars brand them selves as conservatives. Some start with self delusion, others feed on the self delusion of others.
There wasn't any conservative argument in Stephan's post, in House Republican Deputy Leader Joel Kretz of Wauconda's comment about Gregoire's plans, or most of the comments on this thread.

One could make a credible argument that the most conservative commenters were those accused of being liberal crap.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 06:19 PM
78. From the Weekly Standard: "Global temperatures stopped rising a few years ago, much to the dismay of the climate campaigners." (http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-stopped-in-1998.htm) And numerous posts here (and everywhere) about the "fraud" the "hoax" etc.

You deniers and skeptics have no apparent ability to think critically or to evaluate reality. The stolen emails do not change the facts nor the analysis of those facts. Try http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-stopped-in-1998.htm for one. There are many peer reviewed sources grounded on the work by thousands of scientists focused on the issue that say the same thing: Climate change is real and the prognosis is very scary.

What are you all so afraid of? That climate change caused by humans might actually be real? And that we could maybe do something about it?

And even if AGW (anthropogenic global warming) is a total fraud, every measure intended to address it (shift from fossil fuel to renewables, change economic paradigm from consumerism to quality of life, move asap toward a lower stable population) results in a better world for all of us, including both "wingnuts" and "libruls".

The collective ignorance, fear and paranoia displayed here is what is truly frightful. We can only hope you don't represent a majority of us, or we are truly screwed. (IMO, too late anyway...)

Posted by: Toby in Fremont on December 6, 2009 06:19 PM
79. "68. Why you people waste your time arguing with the liberal crap who troll this site is beyond me.

"You can't reason with them. You can't converse with them. You'd get further talking to a freaking brick.

"Ignore them.
Posted by jimg at December 6, 2009 04:17 PM "

So pray tell, you expect people to have a dialogue with you when you call them crap? And why is your email fake or shut off?

Moderator: Please remove this guy's posts; they are abusive and add nothing positive to the conversation.

Posted by: Toby in Fremont on December 6, 2009 06:29 PM
80. demo kid says at #74, "And I think it's fascinating myself to see how conservatives love to lie when it's convenient, and then fall back on some pathetic victimization complex."

Demo kid can't defent the original argument he put forward way back at post #2. Neither can his buddy MikeBoyScout.

Now he makes this ridiculous post at #74.

Demo kid, I challenge you to make a clear, reasonable, coherent post that illustrates how conservatives " lie and then fall back on some pathetic victimization complex."

The ball is in your court.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 06:33 PM
81. @75 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 06:11 PM,

"my comment regarding riding the bus is relevant. It's impractical, it's dangerous, it's time consuming."

Bill, I've been riding King County Metro and Sound Transit for all my commuting across the tri-county area for 7 years now. In the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. It isn't dangerous to passengers.

"Do you think McGinn is going to take his wife out to dinner downtown on the bus? Or on his bicycle?"
I don't know. I have. I do.

But then again, you are exposing me to be different from you; I don't live in fear of nasty looking thugs and my imagination.

Still, it is irrelevant.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 06:34 PM
82. from dk
"And I think it's fascinating myself to see how conservatives love to lie when it's convenient, and then fall back on some pathetic victimization complex."

Hey, provide some examples. If you do, we'll provide examples of you being a liar and resorting to being a victim and name calling. What you are doing is called obfuscation.

Posted by: KDS on December 6, 2009 06:42 PM
83. @81 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 06:33 PM
""I challenge you to make a clear, reasonable, coherent post that illustrates how conservatives " lie and then fall back on some pathetic victimization complex.""

@14 Daniel on December 5, 2009 04:55 PM posted: "This Scam is a Phony game-play to obtain not only Trillions of Dollars but, to Control/Enslave and further empower themselves over the peoples of the World. These people are all part of a Criminal Gang of World proportions."

That is not true. It is knowably not true. It is a lie.

"Only, the Dumbest Blind Fools will continue to believe in this Fraud. Only, the Liberals are capable of such abject Stupidity!"

As Liberal Democrats are in power, Daniel is victimized by being enslaved. (weak, but adequate).

Is Daniel a conservative Bill?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 06:48 PM
84. "Bill, I've been riding King County Metro and Sound Transit for all my commuting across the tri-county area for 7 years now. In the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. It isn't dangerous to passengers"

Perhaps you could be specific about the routes you take. My wife and I commuted to downtown on an express bus for years. No problem at all. It was convenient and made sense. Try commuting to downtown, capitol hill, queen anne, the u-district, or west seattle after dark. It will scare the heck out of you. You certainly would never let your sister, mom, or wife ride those busses alone and you know it.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 06:53 PM
85. @84 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 06:53 PM

"Try commuting to downtown, capitol hill, queen anne, the u-district, or west seattle after dark."

I have. I do.

"It will scare the heck out of you."

No. Not once have I been scared.

"You certainly would never let your sister, mom, or wife ride those busses [sic] alone "

Sure I do. They have. They aren't afraid either Bill. In fact, my wife is on her way home now from West Seattle.. after dark!

Still irrelevant.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 07:12 PM
86. You'll have to excuse me if I say that I do not believe you.

If you are telling the truth you are a terrible husband. I wouldn't ever let my wife stand at a bus stop after dark. There is something called common sense . There are lots of bad people in the city and you have a responsibility to protect your wife from danger. Letting her stand at a bus stop after dark in a big city is irresponsible.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 07:28 PM
87. It was ENRON who lobbied Bush I most heavily for the signing of the Kyoto Protocol. Drowning in profits from juicy energy credit trading was their goal,

It was DUPONT who sponspored and paid for the 1992 Montreal Protocol on ozone depletion.

The decision? Freon refrigerant should be made illegal in 1995, the very year that DuPont lost their patent on Freon.

There is no better refrigerant than Freon. The most efficient refrigerant as well as being non-toxic, non flammable, and non corrosive. Unlike the inferior, toxic, corrosive product they sell now.

Just one example in a thousand which shows that the conventional alarmist wisdom is wrong.

Big Energy and Big Chemical have the alarmists in their pocket. NOT the deniers !!

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 07:28 PM
88. But guess what ! ?

DuPont still makes Freon in India.

Well they should, that country needs cheap, efficient air conditioning. As though we don't.

Keep in mind that no one ever died from Freon exposure or the ozone hole. But people have died from exposure to the new chemicals, and people HAVE died from the fact that HALON fire suppresants are illegal except in military vehicles.

And I contend that if slight global warming IS occurring the World is better off.

I can't be proved wrong. History proves me right.

Humans and plants bloom during the warm periods.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 07:35 PM
89. @87 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 07:28 PM,

When was the Kyoto Protocol written & signed?
And when was either of the Bushes president?

Regarding your assertion that DuPont was somehow in favor of the fluorocarbon ban, is just nuts.

DuPont, which made 1/4 of the world's CFCs, spent millions of dollars running full-page newspaper advertisements defending CFCs in 1975, claiming there was no proof that CFCs were harming the ozone layer. The chairman of DuPont commented in Chemical Week, 16 July 1975 that the ozone depletion theory was "a science fiction tale...a load of rubbish...utter nonsense."

"Just one example in a thousand which shows that the conventional alarmist wisdom is wrong."

A thousand examples that conventional wisdom is wrong? Tell us Bart, is your example an example of science? Or conventional "wisdom"?


Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 07:50 PM
90. @88 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 07:35 PM,

"And I contend that if slight global warming IS occurring the World is better off.
I can't be proved wrong.
"

Of course you can't. Not even the Pope is as infallible as you Bart.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 07:56 PM
91. Isn't this an amusing discussion? The leftists cannot come up with a single company or new initiative that Chris Gregoire will attract to Washington State by attending the Copenhagen summit. They also ignore the insane "carbon footprint" that will occur when Obama and the rest of these phonies descend on Denmark. All of them will fly there in huge jets such as Obama's 747. Boy, they are sure worried about "climate change" aren't they?

Goofs like MikeBoyScout evidently have no problem letting his wife freeze at a bus stop after dark, and risk being attacked by the rapists and murderers that roam our city streets because liberal morons let them out of prison.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 08:02 PM
92. @91 Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 08:02 PM,

You are dangerously close to crossing a line there Bill. Watch your mouth.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 08:10 PM
93. Are you threatening me MikeBoyScout?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 08:13 PM
94. Climategate is such a non-issue that Phil Jones was forced to resign from his leadership position at the East Anglia CRU. Wow, that was some non-issue. Other esteemed "researchers" are under scrutiny. I suspect other heads will roll.

Attention Commies: The world is on to your AGW propaganda, falsified data and gerrymandered "peer review journals".

WA is in an economic crisis and our governor is heading to Copenhagen for a liberal, enviromentalist wack-job, propeller beanie photo-op. Well done.

Posted by: Attila on December 6, 2009 08:19 PM
95. Mike Boy Scout,

Hallelujah !

We finally agree on something.

The Pope IS fallible.

Interesting, and relevant that you bring religion to this debate.

Beliefs are all based upon faith in data we like.

Are you by chance a Wiccan?. As a Boy Scout, I picture you getting your merit badges in knot tying by twisting willow twigs into human effigies, and then letting them hang in the woods.

Did you attend Burning Man this year? Most of my Global Warming Alarmist Wiccan and Buddhist friends were there.

Last time I was in that, hot, dry and dusty hellhole was back when science waved its hands over its head about the coming ice age and I was contracted to find uranium for Three Mile Island.

They're baaaaack !

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 08:25 PM
96. MBS,

The Kyoto Protocol was composed sometime in the mid 1990s. The U.S. has never signed on. I'm surprised, wait, no I'm not, that you didn't know this.

DuPont checked the wind and re-strategized their fully justifiable defense of Freon when they saw its media murder was near, along with the death of their patent. The smart DuPont attorneys and marketers had an epiphany.

The Ozone Hole wasn't discovered and published on until 1978.

How could a trend be determined with no prior measurements?

The authors of the first paper cast about for around a year before they could come up with fear monger that could get grant money. HAIRSPRAY !!

This is another topic, and I could crush you on it, like a tiny head between my fingertips.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 08:36 PM
97. "Climategate is such a non-issue that Phil Jones was forced to resign from his leadership position at the East Anglia CRU."

Except, Phil Jones was not forced nor did resign as director of the climatic research unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia.

But never mind, misstating the facts is not a trick, a travesty or a hoax.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 08:37 PM
98. Background on the Copenhagen Eco-Fraud conference.

"The Copenhagen summit will bring together 16,500 people from 192 countries. People that say they are concerned about global warming caused by human activity.

These true eco-believers will ignore the recently leaked e-mails from so-called scientists which show that the most prominent experts advocating global warming theory were hiding data that showed global cooling, attempting to suppress opposing opinions and were engaged in a criminal attempt to destroy their e-mails in order to avoid a Freedom of Information request.

The Copenhagen participants could have used new technology such as video conferencing to avoid producing an estimated 41,000 tons of carbon dioxide, roughly the same as the carbon emissions of Morocco in 2006. They could have avoided laying over 1,000 miles of computer cable, 50,000 square yards of carpet, and serving more than 200,000 meals.

They might as well call the event the "Copenhagen Hypocrite Conference," because environmentalism and hypocrisy are seen together so often.

The high priest of Copenhagen and Hollywood is the Oscar, Grammy and Nobel Prize winning patron saint of global calamity, Al Gore. He claims the planet "has a fever." He doesn't talk about the fact that he is on his way to becoming a billionaire via his carbon offset businesses and government connections.

Yet he jets around the world never disclosing his blatant conflicts of interest while preaching that we ought to lower our standard of living.

Meanwhile Gore and his wife Tipper, whose children all live elsewhere, live in a sprawling 20-room mansion outside of Nashville that uses 20 times the national average in electricity, including an indoor pool costing $500/month to heat.

Gore purchased "green" electricity in 2007 to deflect some of this criticism and lower his costs and his carbon footprint, still far larger than what he's preaching.

Another global warming alarmist, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. vociferously condemned coal-produced electricity yet aggressively campaigned against a Cape Cod wind farm that would generate carbon-free electricity because the windmills were a bit too close to the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port.

Celebrities and politicians alike justify their huge carbon footprints by buying carbon credits or offsets. Many of the companies engaged in selling these paper indulgences have been shown to be scams.

But scams can alleviate liberal guilt, especially in Hollywood."

It's not so much the premise of global climate change that I disdain, it is the asanine solutions that the Governments (i.e. US, UN) are proposing at the expense of smaller businesses/industries passing on the higher taxes to the consumers.

Posted by: KDS on December 6, 2009 08:42 PM
99. @96 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 08:36 PM,

"The Kyoto Protocol was composed sometime in the mid 1990s. The U.S. has never signed on. I'm surprised, wait, no I'm not, that you didn't know this."

Either you are simply ignorant of the difference between the signing of an international treaty and the constitutional requirement for Senate confirmation of a treaty and as well as ignorant of verifiable history, or you are just stupid.

Let the reader decide.

Oh never mind, I forgot the hurler of epithets told us I can't be proved wrong.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 08:47 PM
100. @98 KDS on December 6, 2009 08:42 PM,

"These true eco-believers will ignore the recently leaked e-mails"

I'm not ignoring them KDS. In fact, at 9:30am this morning on this thread I tried to get a discussion about them (See #37).

How bout you? Clearly you are aware of the evidence.

1) How many years of e-mails and documents were hacked/stolen/retrieved from the Climatic Research Unit - University of East Anglia?

2) What is the number/quantity of e-mails and documents?

3) How many of the e-mails show "evidence" of a scandal?

Or you, KDS, can ignore the recently leaked/hacked/stolen/retrieved e-mails. Let's see.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 09:00 PM
101. MBS,

I would be fascinated to learn about the incredible news that the U.S. has agreed to comply with the terms of the Kyoto Protocol.

Please educate us.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 09:01 PM
102. @101 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 09:01 PM,

"I would be fascinated to learn about the incredible news that the U.S. has agreed to comply with the terms of the Kyoto Protocol"

As would everybody.
Where did you find "the incredible news that the U.S. has agreed to comply with the terms of the Kyoto Protocol"?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 09:04 PM
103. I want all of you who read this blog to note this comment from MikeBoyScout at comment #92, "You are dangerously close to crossing a line there Bill. Watch your mouth."

This was in response to a comment I had made that most men would not let their wives or girlfriends stand alone at a bus stop in Seattle or any big city after dark. I think nearly every man in the country would agree.

MikeBoyScout's comment was designed to intimidate and threaten. Is that the way reasonable, liberal, tolerant people behave?

No, but it does give folks that read this blog a window on the sort of people that actually populate the left.

They are not exactly a nice bunch of people, are they?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 09:06 PM
104. Are you going to keep telling me to "watch your mouth" MikeBoyScout?

I am not letting you off the hook. I post under my own name, unlike you. My name and address are a matter of public record. That's the way we always did when we sent letters to the editors of our local papers. Now you can be anonymous and threaten people with no consequences. I attempt to have a reasonable political discussion. I make points that you might find to be uncomfortable. You counter with personal threats.. I've never told anyone to "watch their mouth".

What in the world is wrong with you?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 09:26 PM
105. @96 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 08:36 PM,

"The Ozone Hole wasn't discovered and published on until 1978. How could a trend be determined with no prior measurements?
This is another topic, and I could crush you on it, like a tiny head between my fingertips.
"

I'm crushed.
But wait! What's this?

Oh dear tiny head crusher between your finger tips,
it is the Mario J. Molina & F. S. Rowland paper "Stratospheric sink for chlorofluoromethanes: chlorine atomc-atalysed destruction of ozone" published 28 June 1974.

It is understandable how you couldn't be aware of it. The National Academy of Sciences concurred with their findings in 1976, and in 1995 the Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded to Rowland and Molina for their research.

But rest assured Bart Cannon, you have crushed me on this topic. Who we going to believe? You? Or our lying eyes?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 09:35 PM
106. Oh, and if you are such a nice liberal that enjoys threatening those you disagree with MikeBoyScout we have a 12 gauge shotgun and a nice little revolver. I pray we won't ever have to use them.

Nuts like you are the reason we have them

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 09:42 PM
107. Rowland and Molina.

Of course I'm aware of it. That's where this all started.

I got the date wrong of publication wrong.

Big deal, the trend was published on not long after the first measurements. My point is a valid as ever.

I think you are in need of some humor.

Rent Boys in the Hall to get a chuckle out of crushing another's head between the fingertips.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 09:42 PM
108. For 12+ hours I have heard not a single response or attempt to answer 3 questions from those who claim that there are mountains of evidence of conspiracy, scandal or crime in the emails of the Climatic Research Unit - University of East Anglia.

1) How many years of e-mails and documents were hacked/stolen/retrieved from the Climatic Research Unit - University of East Anglia?

2) What is the number/quantity of e-mails and documents?

3) How many of the e-mails show "evidence" of a scandal?

Curious why none of the Climate Gate advocates would not jump on that. Not easy enough?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 09:47 PM
109. "gee, billy bob crouton.
all my friends must be she-men for not having the cahones to keep their wives locked up at home! they're not real men! those crazy she-men, letting their wives be independent enough to have jobs and, gasp, ride the bus in the dark in seattle! the city is bad! dangerous! scary black people that want to stab you!

Goofs like MikeBoyScout evidently have no problem letting hiwife freeze at a bus stop after dark, and risk being attacked by the rapists and murderers that roam our city streets because liberal morons let them out of prison.

btw, i completely agree with you, mike huckabee is a moron - almost more so than you. christ, you really are a flippin hypocrite. i bet, based on these comments, your wife left you a long time ago. who would want to be roud you when you're such a vile, horrific liar? not a real woman, and certainly not a christian woman..".

Aren't these leftists fascinating? Their comments are almost impossible to decipher. As it happens, my wife and I have been married for 31 years.

Just read what liberals post. Read the pure anger. What is that all about?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 09:52 PM
110. @109 Bart Cannon on December 6, 2009 09:42 PM,

"My point is a valid as ever."

Of course it is Bart. Facts and dates have nothing at all to do with your "point".

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 6, 2009 09:56 PM
111. We just got a very threatening voice mail.

We've saved all of it and we are going to report it to the authorities

Amazing that you can't have an honest discussion .

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 10:13 PM
112. We have lots of law enforcement people in our family. You picked the wrong people to play with. We have your threatening voice mail and it can be traced. What in the world is wrong with you?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 10:42 PM
113. We have lots of law enforcement people in our family. You picked the wrong people to play with. We have your threatening voice mail and it can be traced. What in the world is wrong with you?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 10:43 PM
114. I have to tell you decent folks it is quite upsetting to get a snarly, creepy, threatening voicemail that was the result of a simple political discussion.

The person who sent that voicemail is likely not much different than the person who killed those wonderful police officers last Sunday . If they want to play with me I'll blow their damned heads off. I'm more than ready for them. They'll get what they deserve.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 11:10 PM
115. Wow, scary stuff here at the end. Nothing to with climate. If it has anything to do with MikeBoyScout, I hope you press charges.

Posted by: Paul Thompson on December 6, 2009 11:13 PM
116. Hey democrat_punk, why shouldn't Gov Fraudoire use video conferencing instead of putting more CO2 in the atmosphere? Hypocrite!!!

Posted by: Crusader on December 6, 2009 11:20 PM
117. Isn't it also interesting that the left is all on the same page with their nomenclature. They all spew "denier" right on cue.

Posted by: Crusader on December 6, 2009 11:28 PM
118. It is scary Paul. I've written letters to the editor, and other articles over the years. It just never occurred to me that I might be personally threatened. I have no idea who this creep that threatened us on our voice mail is. It would be reasonable to assume he is one of the liberals that comment here.

We've saved the voice mail. I might have to hire an attorney, but I want to get this guy and throw him in the slammer for a few years.

Perhaps he'll kick in our front door tonight. If he does he will eat a lot of lead from my revolver.

I can't believe we even have to talk about this kind of stuff.

My apoligies to our readers.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 6, 2009 11:45 PM
119. It's certainly interesting when MikeBoyScout tells you to "watch your mouth" and then my wife and I get an intimidating voice mail.

What's next, a dead fish in our bed?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 7, 2009 12:13 AM
120. The creepy voicemail really upset my wife. It was threatening. It was evil.
What sort of person would make such a phone call?

We know it is someone who comments on Sound Politics. We're are going to find whoever it is. Were are going to take them to court. They are going to prison. Perhaps for a long time.

It is exactly what they deserve.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 7, 2009 12:51 AM
121. Bill,

Mike Boy Scout is smart enough to know that his identity could be revealed with a click of the mouse.

He doesn't have the guts to show his real name, let alone show his real face on your porch.

I think that you are dealing with a lurker on the site. And THAT is somewhat troubling.

Hey Lurker, leave Bill alone, and come to my place instead.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 7, 2009 02:16 AM
122. Uh-oh! Crisis in Denmark! There are not enough limos to satisfy demand. They have to drive them in from neighboring countries.

Posted by: Gary on December 7, 2009 05:26 AM
123. @80: Demo kid can't defent the original argument he put forward way back at post #2. Neither can his buddy MikeBoyScout.

From the link that Stefan provided for the report in The Olympian:

The trip is sponsored by the Georgetown Climate Center, which operates out of the Georgetown University law school and came into being a few years ago at the behest of activist states such as California and Washington, Manning said. The center and a nonprofit Chicago group, The Climate Registry, are splitting the expenses for Gregoire and two staff members, Janice Adair of the Department of Ecology and Keith Phillips of the governor’s Office of Financial Management, Manning said.

Proof enough that the state isn't paying for it? Likewise, the report also discusses that there is an economic aspect to this.

But you haven't answered MY question... if you object to Gregoire going, should the people of Minnesota object to Pawlenty trudging down to Florida to shill for Rubio? That has NO bearing on the job of governor whatsoever, right?

Demo kid, I challenge you to make a clear, reasonable, coherent post that illustrates how conservatives " lie and then fall back on some pathetic victimization complex."

I think the fact that you got a random phone call, connected it to someone that has no real reason to crank call you, and then spent several posts bragging about how you'd shoot him if he came by seems like a victimization complex to me. I mean, you've provided: no proof of the call itself, no proof that the call was threatening, no proof that the call was related to this, and no proof that the call came from MikeBoyScout as you suggest.

If it was threatening, then yes, that's awful, and I hope that you do call the police. However, the nonsensical series of posts following it are more reflective of someone that just loves being the victim and getting the sympathy than someone that actually just deals with these problems without being a drama queen.

Ugh. I'm usually able to tolerate a fair amount of stupid from the peanut gallery here, but I'm truly impressed. It really has reached a new low.

Posted by: demo kid on December 7, 2009 05:59 AM
124. @118: Hey democrat_punk, why shouldn't Gov Fraudoire use video conferencing instead of putting more CO2 in the atmosphere? Hypocrite!!!

Hey, I think you're right. I can get the value of face-to-face meetings, but the idea of flying halfway around the world to talk about climate change is pointless.

And yes, I'll be the first one to admit that it's a nasty form of liberal hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. It's pointless from a net perspective to recycle and bike to work, and then take a trip to Hawaii. It is a process, but still... I would appreciate more teleconferencing and fewer limos.

Posted by: demo kid on December 7, 2009 06:06 AM
125. You know what's really funny about this? I know man-made global warming is B.S. just as well as AL Gore or Christine Gregoire does, but their followers are clueless.

Gore, Gregoire, Obama, Friedman would not behave the way they do if they believed the nonsense they convince their followers of.

I mean, come on... who's home is more eco-friendly, George W. Bush's or Al Gore's?


Posted by: Gary on December 7, 2009 06:20 AM
126. And Phil Jones is just taking some time off from leading the CRU so he can don his spandex bike shorts, propeller beanie, hempfest shirt, do up a pony tail and grace the world with his leftist butt?

Face it, discussing deleting e-mails to avoid compliance with FOIA requests, conspiring to exclude opposing view points from professional journals, admitting there has been no warming for the past ten years (and "its a travesty we can't find it") and conspiring to avoid compliance with FOIA requests make our leftist, enviro wack job "researchers" all look really, really good in the eyes of the world.
I'm especially fond of the neat "trick" of destroying the raw data upon which all the um - dare I say heavily politicized climate conclusions - are based. We are all expected to dutifully believe all the conclusions from a group of stalinist lefties in lab coats (who want centrally planned economies and world government).

Posted by: Attila on December 7, 2009 06:32 AM
127. EPA is going to rule today that CO2 is a danger to the world. So, let's say you want to build a 7-11 in Arkansas. The EPA is going to have to study that to see how it will affect Polar Bears in Alaska.

We're almost done folks.

Posted by: Gary on December 7, 2009 06:45 AM
128. mike, you believe CO2 is a danger to the planet?

Posted by: Gary on December 7, 2009 08:09 AM
129. The salient point is that signing on to whatever treaty comes out of Copenhagen will DESTROY more jobs than whatever 'green energy' companies, if any, Gregoire could possibly attract here.

Also, while these other organizations may be paying her expenses to go, we are still paying Gregoire, no? Or is she taking vacation time to be there? Doubt it. Regardless, she should be figuring out whatever possible way not to raise taxes instead of wasting time on this.

Posted by: Palouse on December 7, 2009 08:22 AM
130. This post puts Copenhagen and Kyoto in perspective:

http://townhall.com/blog/g/b66e6bb9-4bb7-4ac4-8218-e40575327417?comments=true&commentsSortDirection=Descending

Posted by: Paddy on December 7, 2009 09:40 AM
131. demo kid says this at #125, I think the fact that you got a random phone call, connected it to someone that has no real reason to crank call you, and then spent several posts bragging about how you'd shoot him if he came by seems like a victimization complex to me. I mean, you've provided: no proof of the call itself, no proof that the call was threatening, no proof that the call was related to this, and no proof that the call came from MikeBoyScout as you suggest."

Perhaps you might peruse MikeBoyScout's comments at #92. I quote directly: "You are dangerously close to crossing a line there Bill. Watch your mouth."

I have the threatening call recorded. I don't ever want to shoot anyone. No sane person does. That does not mean I am willing to allow someone to threaten my family.

Isn't this just a classic example of how the bad guys get defended? I get threatening posts, a horrid phone call, and demo kid says that I have a "victimization complex" .

I'm taking legal action against whoever the person is that threatened my family. I have what was written on this thread. I have the intimidating voice mail.

I notice demo kid and most liberals never say who they are. I am not going to play that game. Whoever it is that threatened my family as a result of simple political disagreement is going to be prosecuted. I will not put up with this. We all should be free to post our opinions without fear of threats and violence. I am sure you would agree.

I am going after this nasty jerk. I don't know if he is MikeBoyScout or not. I love spirited political discussions. I try to not make it personal. I have the courage to use my real name.

When it gets to the point where my family is threatened I'll do everything in my power to see that these dreadful people get a long enjoyable vacation at the graybar hotel

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 7, 2009 09:51 AM
132. This thread grew tiresome quickly, with the bloviations of the warmers (dumbo, MikeBS) who are now the deniers. It's a conspiracy, stupid.

Posted by: yaddacubed on December 7, 2009 09:58 AM
133. My wife wrote down the text of the voicemail we received just after 11:00 last night: We've saved it, of course.

"Hey Bill, knock of your comments about my family. Knock off your comments about your suggesting violence"

"This is the last time"

"Goodbye"

We've saved everything. Whoever this person is it is obvious that we all would be better off if he was behind bars. That's where he's going.
Clearly this person should not be free to roam our streets.

I've been commenting publicly about political issues for more than 25 years. I've gotten angry letters, and on occasion in this era angry e-mails. I've never received what could be characterized as a death threat.

Sorry to have to share this here. Perhaps there is a case to be made for posting with an anonymous made up name and e-mail address.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 7, 2009 10:22 AM
134. The fact is that there are 450 Peer Reviewed papers that are skeptical of "consensus AGW science."
You can read them here.

There are zero studies by AGW proponents that show a clear crisis that we must repspond to with massive economic action.
A few mm of sea level rise over 100 years is predicted, but not known for sure. There is talk of glacier meltinge, etc. but nothing that shows that there is anything approaching a crisis.
Everything is based on Global Climate Models which the AGW scientists are not willing to share for wider peer review outside of a tiny clique.
The models have not predicted past climate nor present climate correctly, yet we are told we can believe outlandish crisis scenarios predicted 100 years out.
The models are much closer to the Nigerian emails that ask you to send money to some prince in Nigeria than to climate science.

Proponents of AGW here will not be able to produce a single credible piece of evidence that shows a conclusive crisis. There is simply nothing but speculation. Yet the opposing papers show a lot of evidence that there is no cause for alarm or crisis. The public is no longer impressed by the scare tactics. Only a small percentage is willing to believe in a consensus. Don't bother listening to the talking points or responding to the angry trolls here. Just let the evidence speak for itself. Read the papers, read the emails, judge for yourself. There is no crisis.

Posted by: The Point on December 7, 2009 10:51 AM
135. What a "boy scout".

I don't know any "boy scouts" who engage in such behavior. The boy scouts I know believe in god, patriotism and honesty (which kind of puts them at odds with liberals).

Posted by: Attila on December 7, 2009 11:21 AM
136. mike@130: Actually it means those on the left that support the Co2 ruling have to stop breathing or reveal themselves as hypocrites.

Posted by: mike336 on December 7, 2009 11:28 AM
137. Trust me Attila. We are chasing this nut down and he will end up behind bars. No one should be allowed to call you at night and threaten you simply because you have a political disagreement.

I don't ever want to shoot someone. I do want to protect my family from people who call me late at night and threaten me.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 7, 2009 11:48 AM
138. #139. Exactly. I can sure my employer if he permits second hand smoke to get in my lungs, right? Can I not also sue him for the second-hand CO2 that comes from the guy in the next cube, and winds up in my lungs?

Posted by: Gary on December 7, 2009 12:04 PM
139. A poem by Jack Handey... I mean, Al Gore:

One thin September soon
A floating continent disappears
In midnight sun

Vapors rise as
Fever settles on an acid sea . . .

Snow glides from the mountain
Ice fathers floods for a season
A hard rain comes quickly

Then dirt is parched
Kindling is placed in the forest
For the lightning's celebration . . .

The shepherd cries
The hour of choosing has arrived
Here are your tools

-

Speaking tools...

Posted by: Gary on December 7, 2009 12:26 PM
140. Bill - I hope you nail the asshole and put him away for 25 years. If it's donkey_kid, this will be one very painful lesson to him and his kind.

Posted by: Crusader on December 7, 2009 02:16 PM
141. So trolls, are you serenading your girlfriends/wives with Al Gore's poetry?

Posted by: Michele on December 7, 2009 03:42 PM
142. Thanks, Crusader. We can have lively discussions but when it gets to the point of vicious personal attacks and someone calling and threatening us I'm going to take action.

These nuts crank out posts that imply that I and other conservatives can't wait to blast away with our firearms. Nothing can be farther from the truth. I hope and pray I will never have to use my weapons on another human being.

This person left a huge cyber and land line mail trail. We have all of it. Civilized people do not threaten each other. Do I think some guy who terrified my wife with a threatening phone call deserves a few years behind bars? Oh yes, and I am going to make sure it happens. Actions have consequences.


Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 7, 2009 03:43 PM
143. I heard fox news today amd it looks as if global warming effort will be as I heard it more than a promise yet less than a treaty sounds like weakening of Copenhagen thank goodness! Interesting what some hacked emails can do especialy when 2 universities one in U.K. and one in Pennslyvania are investigating their scientists as they resign.

Posted by: Laurie on December 7, 2009 04:39 PM
144. Mike@148:

It was a leak from inside CRU. The files match an FOI request made by published and peer reviewed statistician Steve McIntyre of Toronto.

The hacking lie comes from the folks at RealClimate(dot)Com. The same ones who who are central in nearly all the emails, who faked the data, wrote the computer code (which is doing a lot more than the "hiding the decline"), and who suppressed dissent for the IPCC's last two reports (2001 and 2007). You know, the ones with the 2,500 climate scientists, which BTW included Steve McIntyre in the 2007 report (which makes him too a co-recipient of the Nobel Prize).

You can go on believing these emails and other documents are meaningless to the debate, and maybe you and your brethren will eventually prevail, but you will NOT sway me with propaganda and faked science.

I, unlike most of your fellow believers, studied science, practices it daily, and knows what real science looks, feels and tastes like. The IPCC is something very different.

Posted by: deadwood on December 7, 2009 06:58 PM
145. "so hacking into computers and breaking into offices is acceptable behaviour? did well for that traitor nixon, i guess. i think we'll see the same fate with denier-funded orgs."

You bet it is, butthead. Hats off to the hackers ! They should be rewarded. Why did one of the scientists destroy data dating back to the 1960's ? Because the data showed a decline that they didn't want it to show. They manipulated the argument and were being dishonest in exchange for being paid off by lobbyists. As Michael Crichton wrote: "Follow the Money "

This is thousands of times bigger than anything Nixon attempted. This will affect the world economy and will only benefit a select few investors like Al Gore and George Soros. Because the data showed a decline that they didn't want it to show. They manipulated the argument. This may shoot down the Cap and Trade movement, or at least it should. Maybe Gore will be found by evidence to be a fraud - I won't be that surprised.

With that said, I am done feeding the trolls for now.

Posted by: KDS on December 7, 2009 07:06 PM
146. It is very unlikely that it was a hack. And it is not even called a hack, it's a crack. The FOI2009.zip file was clearly a compilation put together by someone with knowledge of where to get documents and select emails. For it to have been a crack, there would need to have been wide knowledge of which computers to get documents from, and access to many computers. Many of those would have been laptops which might not have even been online when a cracker was in the network. The much more plausible scenario is that the document truly was an FOI document compiled by a knowledgeable insider..

Thus someone with a better grasp of how science is conducted than the actual CRU alarmist scientists, placed the FOI2009.zip file outside of the CRU. It appears it was first sent to a BBC reporter. The reporter sat on the file, doing nothing. So the whistleblower then sent the file to where it was eventually found.

Further, unlike with Watergate, where the issue was the break-in, and not that there was any particularly useful information that was obtained. With Climategate the content of CRU emails and files, is quite damning. And if the leaker ends up exposing the lack of consensus that then prevents trillions from being wasted on non-existent problems, then that person will be a hero.

They keep hoping that this will blow over, but it's not going to happen.

Posted by: Jeff B. on December 7, 2009 07:20 PM
147. Funny - the state of Washington owns a Learjet (I believe a Lear 45) for executive travel. Maybe she should sell that to prove how "green" she is.

Posted by: Andrew S, on December 7, 2009 07:55 PM
148. Fun with Science: take a look at the sea-level changes for Victoria, BC and Vancouver, BC. Pretty big differences for two locations located about a 2 hour boat ride apart from each other! Then look at the other side of Canada, in Halifax.

And for a real hoot, Mumbai, India has a great trend!

And here I thought the glaciers and polar caps were melting so that we were all going to drown from the seas rising!

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 7, 2009 08:41 PM
149. mike - you sound VERY scared. As in scared that you left a cyber + land-line trail and are going away to prison-type scared.

Posted by: Crusader on December 7, 2009 11:38 PM
150. I had to laugh about what happened to new and alleged "environmentalist" lands commissioner Peter Goldmark. Using "climate change" myth in order to save his executive toy airplane and the detriment to the environment and our tax dollars.

In an effort to balance the budget the Legislature decided DNR "shall dispose of the King Air aircraft it currently owns. Disposal of the aircraft must occur no later than June 30, 2010."
In response to this, Goldmark sent Governor Gregoire a letter on May 6 demanding that she veto this forced sale and save his plane. Goldmark's letter reads in-part: "This threatens the state's ability to effectively fight wildfires and respond to natural disasters. It compromises our ability to save the state and its residents millions of dollars each year. This is the wrong direction for maintaining our emergency response infrastructure while climate change is causing increased frequency and severity of wildfires and major climatic events causing floods, landslides, and utility damage . . . Disposing of our aircraft in the face of more wildfires, and climate-change related storms is simply the opposite direction that the state should be headed with its emergency response infrastructure."

The WA policy center story has a link to the full Goldmark letter and response by UW climatologist Cliff Mass and former DNR Communications Director Todd Myers why Goldmark has it wrong. Wow, this AGW cult has really lost all touch with sanity.

Posted by: Rick D. on December 8, 2009 05:07 AM
151. Mike do all of us a favor quit foaming at the mouth!Seems resident trolls like you have this nasty habit of doing this when things don't go your way! deadwood is right. BY the way do you know what the freedom of information act is?One can figure out if this stuff was valid or not courtesy of this act!And these folks have been caught with their hand in the cookie and paid the consequences for once!!Be careful what you defend it exposes your lemming tendencies.Also I resent you comparing this to Nixon as there is no comparison!Name calling desn't help either!

Posted by: Laurie on December 8, 2009 05:28 AM
152. Mike,

Now, look at Neah Bay, just a little further down the Strait. Oops.

See, we have three pretty different measurements for sea level change in a very small geographic area. Yet some of your climate clowns are using sea level changes to justify the "oceans are rising" catastrophe.

When you have predictions of 12 inch differences between places literally (geographically speaking) next to each other, with the exact same geography, maybe we're looking at something other than ocean levels rising or falling; maybe it's the land?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 8, 2009 06:12 AM
153. What do you expect from AGW cultists?

These are the same clowns that proudly do the same personality cult junk with president teleprompter (just like they do for the likes of Kim Jong Il, Joe Stalin and the rest of the liberal hall of fame).

The scientific method requires skeptical inquiry, including replication of results by skeptical investigators. Denying access to data and conspiring to destroy data to avoid compliance with FOIA requests does not inspire confidence in the enviro-wack job "researchers" at East Anglia.

Posted by: Attila on December 8, 2009 07:06 AM
154. It was Russia rained on the global warming alarmist parade. Barbara Boxer should go over there and plead for the arrest of the so-called hackers (maybe the Ruskies would do us a favor and keep her from leaving).

'PROGRESSIVES' fit into 2 categories: 1) EVIL MANIPULATORS 2) NAIVE DUPES OF EPIC PROPORTION Read: http://tinyurl.com/yfodpos Which R You?...

Posted by: KDS on December 8, 2009 07:15 AM
155. The polls show that Americans are beginning to figure out that "global warming" is a hoax manufactured by the left.

The left has been hitting people over the head about "global warming" for years and years. Every school child believes in it. The media has trumpeted it in print, and on their television outlets.

Now it is all unravelling. This is not a far left country in spite of what big city leftists believe. People who voted for Obama are wondering why they did.

The meanest, nastiest people in this country are on the political left. They control the press. They control the media. They control education. They kill innocent unborn children. They want to control your life, what you eat, what you drive, what do these people not want to control? They are the people that somehow convinced my 10-year old niece that "Sarah Palin shoots wolves".

They are sure a far cry from who the were in the 1960's when they "just wanted to be free and stuff" .

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 8, 2009 01:25 PM
156. MikeBoyScout: 3) How many of the e-mails show "evidence" of a scandal?

What matters is not the quantity, but rather the facts that: (1) most climate research is done with filtered and normalized data obtained through Hadley Climate Research Unit; (2) when they've been pressured to explain exactly what they've done to "normalize" their data, Hadley's response has been to say, essentially, "trust us", while refusing to actually explain their methodology; (3) the code that was included in the leaked documents fudges the data in ways that adjust recent temperatures upward and older temperatures downward. Comparison of CRU's published data with actual historical weather-station data suggests that CRU did in fact use such code to tweak their numbers.

Essentially, the data coming out of CRU shows "warming" because the people at CRU fudged it to do so, even going so far as adding code that artificially lowers temperatures when generating data for previous decades and raises them when generating data for recent years. The sad reality is that the vast majority of research based upon the CRU dataset is completely worthless. People who ran models against the CRU dataset might try to run their models against more honestly-generated data, should it ever become available(*), and maybe some models will still hold up, but for the most part the CRU dataset is meaningless and any research based upon it is thus equally meaningless.

Posted by: supercat on December 8, 2009 03:20 PM
157. MikeBoyScout: 3) How many of the e-mails show "evidence" of a scandal?

What matters is not the quantity, but rather the facts that: (1) most climate research is done with filtered and normalized data obtained through Hadley Climate Research Unit; (2) when they've been pressured to explain exactly what they've done to "normalize" their data, Hadley's response has been to say, essentially, "trust us", while refusing to actually explain their methodology; (3) the code that was included in the leaked documents fudges the data in ways that adjust recent temperatures upward and older temperatures downward. Comparison of CRU's published data with actual historical weather-station data suggests that CRU did in fact use such code to tweak their numbers.

Essentially, the data coming out of CRU shows "warming" because the people at CRU fudged it to do so, even going so far as adding code that artificially lowers temperatures when generating data for previous decades and raises them when generating data for recent years. The sad reality is that the vast majority of research based upon the CRU dataset is completely worthless. People who ran models against the CRU dataset might try to run their models against more honestly-generated data, should it ever become available(*), and maybe some models will still hold up, but for the most part the CRU dataset is meaningless and any research based upon it is thus equally meaningless.

(*) That may be difficult. There are many gaps in the real data, and accurate reconstruction will require knowing what caused them. If there are some missing temperature readings from a particular weather station, one might guess that the temperature on the missing days was similar to the temperatures before and after, but if harsh weather damaged the equipment and delayed its repair, that may not be accurate. Even if all the temperature readings from a weather station exist in machine-readable form, unless the various maintenance notes (many likely hand-written) still exist and can be examined, it may be hard to accurately reconstruct a real temperature history.

Posted by: supercat on December 8, 2009 03:24 PM
158. @163 supercat on December 8, 2009 03:24 PM,

"Essentially, the data coming out of CRU shows "warming" because the people at CRU fudged it to do so"

Essentially you are pulling this conclusion out of your ___. You have offered only your very weak hypothesis, and who are you? Have you published any peer reviewed papers on climate?
We wait for your citation.

"What matters is not the quantity, but rather the facts"

Agreed, where are yours?
supercat, you danced around the 3rd of my three questions.
(1), (2) and (3) of your reply are not facts. They are opinions.
One would think that with the "mountains of evidence" available from the CRU leaked/stolen material, someone could cite some specific evidence of the climategate hoax assertion.

Unless... there is none.

Whatever you do, don't watch this.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 8, 2009 04:46 PM
159. To all of the AGW cultists:
It's a cycle, stupid. You're really not that relevant in your short time here on earth, so just save the self-adulation and live your life as best you can. Despite all of the henney penney 'sky is falling'rhetoric, it certainly isn't curbing the behavior of the most vocal spokespersons out there selling this rubbish.
So don't be a rube and actually do as they say, but rather do as they do.

Posted by: Rick D. on December 8, 2009 06:05 PM
160. Has anyone noticed that it is very, very cold throughout the entire nation? It never got above freezing today in Seattle. It's down in the 40's in most of California.

The "climate change" people push their agenda because they desire socialism. They fly their carbon blasting airplanes to Copenhagen because they really do not give a darn. If they truly were concerned about "climate change" they would use technology and conduct the entire summit via the internet. They would set an example. They don't care. They are phonies. What they really care about is establishing governmental control over how we live our lives. The Obamas, the Gores, the Clintons have lived their entire lives since they were in college in the 1960's for this moment. "Climate change" was merely a vehicle these terrible people decided to use in order cram socialism down our throats.

For more than 30 years these awful people have stopped the building of nuclear power plants. They have stopped oil exploration. They fight against mining. Their lawyers can't wait to stop the progress that have made all of our lives better, including theirs.

I'd love to take away all the toys these people enjoy as a result of the capitalism they hate. The mining, and the drilling that have made it all possible. I-pod? Gone. Television? Gone. Microwave oven? Gone. Computer? Gone. Cars? Gone. In Washington State we would not have those wonderful dams that provide us with electric power and irrigate farms. Todays environmental attorneys would have fought those dams. They fight any kind of progress. And what do they call themselves these days? "Progressives". I'd love to see them live in a world without the progress they are obsessed with stopping.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 8, 2009 06:48 PM
161. MikeBS, the link to the 450 Peer Reviewed papers is @137. Read them, you might learn something. Also, you might want to note that there was another leak today. This one in Copenhagen. A small clique that calls themselves "The Circle of Commitment" has been working in secret to bypass the UN and allow rich countries a better deal at Copenhagen. So where there is supposed to be a united front to protect us from disaster, there is corrupt infighting.

Also note that it was shown yesterday that temperature data for the relatively few stations in all of Australia was improperly adjusted. Studies based on this information will show warming, where in fact, there was none.

Posted by: Jeff B. on December 8, 2009 06:53 PM
162. @167 Jeff B. on December 8, 2009 06:53 PM,

The link is a good one. But it does not identify any papers discussing a hoax, or climategate.

Specifically, the link is a collection of "papers support skepticism of "man-made" global warming or the environmental or economic effects of."

Skepticism is good. Scientific skepticism is better. In fact, the documents and e-mails hacked from CRU show an awful lot of skepticism also.

But, what about this conspiracy nonsense? You have any citations?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 9, 2009 04:21 AM
163. Conspiracy? Hardly. Your words. There's a link and citations on the public blog. The story is in the UK Guardian.

Posted by: Jeff B. on December 9, 2009 04:38 AM
164. @167 Jeff B. on December 8, 2009 06:53 PM,

I apologize. In my haste I forgot to give you this from RealClimate.org, the host of your citation.

"More interesting is what is not contained in the emails. There is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy, no mention of George Soros nefariously funding climate research, no grand plan to "get rid of the MWP", no admission that global warming is a hoax, no evidence of the falsifying of data, and no "marching orders" from our socialist/communist/vegetarian overlords. The truly paranoid will put this down to the hackers also being in on the plot though."

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 9, 2009 04:38 AM
165. Progression of fear-based liberal hysteria:

1970's - Fear of the new coming ice age
1980's - Fear of the nuclear winter age
1990's - Fear of the new global warming age
2000's - Fear of the impending global "climate change" catastrophe

40 years of fear-based, ideological rubbish. Wake me when the polar bears start to picket outside the UN demanding action. Otherwise, I'll stick to non-fictional events. Can't wait to see what they can get themselves worked up over in irrational anxiety in the nearing 2010's era.

Posted by: Rick D. on December 9, 2009 06:05 AM
166. Back in the days when I was a kool-aid drinker, I attended a lecture by then Australian member of parliament Helen Caldicott in the U-district (circa 1993). She stressed back that humanity only had ten years to reverse AGW before we were all doomed.
Of course, she was and is a complete loon. Libs bought her crap hook, line and sinker back then and still do. They just keep rigging the numbers and roping the public along from decade to decade.

Posted by: Attila on December 9, 2009 06:17 AM
167. That's the funny thing with these folks. The world is always going to end in just about as far out as the typical emotional Democrat voter can think. Ehrelich said it would be 2000 when Carter was running. Gore says we only have a few years to act.

It's nothing more than the crazy guy walking around Westlake Plaza with a sandwich board proclaiming Repent, We Are All Doomed.

Posted by: Jeff B. on December 9, 2009 07:42 AM
168. As long as Gore lives, we'll be fine since he always says we only "have 10 years left" and he's been saying that for 20 years

Posted by: Gary on December 9, 2009 08:20 AM
169. MikeBoyScout, do you believe that CO2 is a dangerous polutant?


Posted by: Gary on December 9, 2009 09:46 AM
170.
From FOX News:

"If you don't pass this legislation, then ... the EPA is going to have to regulate in this area," the official said. "And it is not going to be able to regulate on a market-based way, so it's going to have to regulate in a command-and-control way, which will probably generate even more uncertainty."

-

A "command-and-control way". Just how liberals have always wanted to be ruled.

Posted by: Gary on December 9, 2009 10:03 AM
171. Last year Al Gore said the North Pole will disappear within 5 years. Today he told NBC that it could disappear within a decade.

So... does that mean it's getting colder?

Posted by: Gary on December 9, 2009 10:08 AM
172. Jeff B., Way back in the 1960's we used to see people walking around with signs that said things such as "the end of earth is nigh!" Or "repent"

One year we vacationed in August in Seaside Oregon. There was a little shack on the promenade selling t-shirts and sweat shirts. This was in the pre-hippie days. It was probably 1965. The guy selling the shirts could best be described as a "beatnik". Sort of like Maynard on the old "Dobie Gillis" TV show.
One of the sweatshirts had sort of an Ed, "Big Daddy Roth" character with the word "Repent" on it. If you remember "Big Daddy Roth" you did grow up in the 1960's. Oh yes, this guy said casually, "here is your repent" as he held up the sweatshirt.

I still have it.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 9, 2009 10:09 AM
173. Gee, I wonder if this science could mean anything for climate?

Naaaaahhh, better to just tune in to ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, The Daily Show, NYT, etc. and just keep believing whatever Al Gore says.

Posted by: Jeff B. on December 9, 2009 10:46 AM
174. @176, I agree, and it's scary. When SCOTUS gave the EPA the power to regulate CO2 as a pollutant, it was a massive transfer of power to the Executive branch. The EPA can now regulate just about anything in the name of CO2 avoidance. Now the EPA is making demands of Congress to pass legislation that it stood no chance of passing, or else it's going to usurp that power and do it itself. No check of power. Why doesn't the MSM DO ITS FRIGGIN JOB and write about this?

Posted by: Palouse on December 9, 2009 10:51 AM
175. Jeff, did you see this one:

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/02/14/how-not-to-measure-temperature-part-51/

#180 "Why doesn't the MSM DO ITS FRIGGIN JOB and write about this?"

Because they are the liberals who want to be "commanded" and "controlled".


Posted by: Gary on December 9, 2009 10:55 AM
176. Just read this and thought it summed it up pretty well:

Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century's developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age.

-- MIT Professor Richard Lindzen, PhD, Atmospheric Science

Posted by: Palouse on December 9, 2009 02:02 PM
177. @181 Gary on December 9, 2009 10:55 AM,

I don't know about the MSM, but Kevin Drum over at MJ did a piece on it.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 10, 2009 11:09 AM
178. Now there is an unbiased source without an agenda. Mother Jones.

The amount of people who are beginning to suspect that "climate change" is a leftist scam grows every day. Polls indicate the most American voters are figuring out just who Obama, Gore, Biden, Pelosi, Reid ,and Kerry, (who is the richest individual in Congress), really are. Phony, rich, ozone gobbling hypocrites. Obama flew his 747 to Norway today. Where else will he fly this week? Next week? Copenhagen. Come on you liberals. The 4-wheel drive
truck driving "rednecks" leftists love to sneer at can't generate a carbon footprint in 10-years that Obama generates in one week. Does Obama ever suggest that we avoid flying and hold a teleconference instead? We do have the technology. Of course he doesn't because he does not believe in "climate change" himself. Actions speak louder than words.

The left's 40-year party is nearly over. The days when they can intimidate all of us with political correctness are coming to an end.

Every program liberals have enacted lose money and require higher taxes. What are we about to get from Governor Chris Greqoire who promised no new taxes during her last campaign? She's whining about a balanced budget and threatening to cut healthcare for low income workers, aid to those with disabilities, and financial aid to low income college students unless taxes are raised. It's the game liberals always play. They threaten to cut services they have been unable to manage responsibly. Wait for her to threaten cuts in law enforcement, and prisons (as if liberals don't routinely let dangerous criminals out of prison on a regular basis).

Liberals can't manage public schools, universities, Social Security, Medicare, and now lie to us that national healthcare will reduce the cost of medical care. What sort of fool would believe these people?

Is there the slightest bit of evidence that they can manage a single one of their schemes?

We are going the throw these people out of office next year.


Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 10, 2009 05:19 PM
179. @181 Gary on December 9, 2009 10:55 AM,

Looks like the MSM did look into it. Here is what the Economist had to say:


"After hours of research, I can dismiss Mr Eschenbach. But what am I supposed to do the next time I wake up and someone whose name I don't know has produced another plausible-seeming account of bias in the climate-change science? Am I supposed to invest another couple of hours in it? Do I have to waste the time of the readers of this blog with yet another long post on the subject? Why? Why do these people keep bugging us like this? Does the spirit of scientific skepticism really require that I remain forever open-minded to denialist humbug until it's shown to be wrong? At what point am I allowed to simply say, look, I've seen these kind of claims before, they always turns out to be wrong, and it's not worth my time to look into it?"


Can we just declare The Economist a liberal marxist ACORN controlled rag and affirm that we shall never question the musings of wingnuts that match our own ill conceived mis perceptions?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 12:35 PM
180. "What sort of fool would believe these people?
Is there the slightest bit of evidence that they can manage a single one of their schemes?
"

108. Oh, and if you are such a nice liberal that enjoys threatening those you disagree with MikeBoyScout we have a 12 gauge shotgun and a nice little revolver. I pray we won't ever have to use them. Nuts like you are the reason we have them
122. We know it is someone who comments on Sound Politics. We're are going to find whoever it is. Were are going to take them to court. They are going to prison.
140. We are chasing this nut down and he will end up behind bars.


Indeed, is there the slightest bit of evidence that they can manage a single one of their schemes?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 01:18 PM
181. Maybe the guy at the Economist missed this, from the so-called "settled science" institute:

“Where the heck is global warming?” one scientist wonders in a leaked e-mail. “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.”

Their own computer programs have fatal flaws (see previous posts). Their databases have "no uniform data integrity" according to their own emails. Their own computer models cannot go back, even with accurate climate data, and predict the climate that actually occurred. They destroyed raw data in favor of "value added" data. They advocated destruction of emails to hide embarrassing facts.

And this is what liberals want to base the destruction of billions of our wealth and thousands, if not millions, of jobs in this country.

Posted by: Palouse on December 11, 2009 01:19 PM
182. @ 187 Palouse on December 11, 2009 01:19 PM,

"Maybe the guy at the Economist missed this, from the so-called "settled science" institute:
"Where the heck is global warming?" one scientist wonders in a leaked e-mail. "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't."
"

Yes. That's it!
YOU and the other physicists and crack investigators on this board can't possibly be using snippet out of context.

We know this because you posted a link to the entire e-mail.


Ooops! No you didn't.


No worries. I read here that I'm going to prison for years. ;-)


Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 01:36 PM
183. Well, since the scientists from the settled science cabal destroyed all the raw data and won't give anyone else access to their source code, it's pretty hard to determine the real truth. That's unfortunate. But you don't need to be a 'crack investigator' to realize there's something rotten in Denmark.

This reminds me of the liberals who were still defending the Rathergate memos' content, even after they were demonstrably proven to be fraudulent.

Posted by: Palouse on December 11, 2009 02:01 PM
184. @189 Palouse on December 11, 2009 02:01 PM,

YES!! YES!!! YES!!!!
And don't forget the mind control magic formula the settled science cabal put in the drinking water, calling it fluoride and good for our teeth!!
Everybody knows that if you're missing a couple of teeth, and wear a straw hat you're a genius!
Tell me, ever see a settled science cabal supporter with a straw hat and missing his teeth?

Liberals!! Marxists!! Also too, ACORN!!

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 02:19 PM
185. MikeBS: Your comments appear to get stranger each day and each post. Have you run out of coherent things to say?

Posted by: katomar on December 11, 2009 02:28 PM
186. @191 katomar on December 11, 2009 02:28 PM,

Coherently then: What does my post @185 demonstrate about the many claims of conspiracy and cabal, and those who traffic in claims of conspiracy and cabal regarding global warming?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 02:37 PM
187. @191 katomar on December 11, 2009 02:28 PM,
Re #192: Crickets?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 03:04 PM
188. "but instead of staying home to figure out how to cut spending and not raise taxes, Mrs. Gregoire is jetting off on a junket to Copenhagen"

The budget has been released, the Governor is jetting to mingle with the climategate deniers, and......... well, nothing. Who coulda guessed?

Cuz sometimes a Governor goes on a trip, and shit happens.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on December 11, 2009 03:51 PM
189. MikeBoyScout says at #188, "No worries. I read here that I'm going to prison for years."

It may or may not have been you MikeBoyScout that made this comment to me back at #92, "You are dangerously close to crossing a line there Bill. Watch your mouth."

It may or may not have been you who shortly afterwards made a threatening phone call to my family.

Reasonable people can have political disagreements without making threats as if they were still in Junior High School.

We have laws that protect our rights of free speech. No one has the right to threaten and intimidate those who might happen to disagree with them.

Whoever it was did a great job of confirming my belief that many on the left are actually very unpleasant people. Not exactly a lot of "peace and love".

What I desire MikeBoyScout is to establish that no one has the right to threaten someone as I was threatened. It's so easy to just post under a phony name as you do. Then you can personally threaten those of us who use our real names. You can find our telephone number and leave us a creepy, threatening voice mail. Meanwhile, you can comfortably remain anonymous.

You have every legal right you are entitled to. Whoever you are, you left a big trail.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 11, 2009 06:13 PM
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