February 01, 2010
And Don't Even Bother to Visit

Some in Seattle would like to one-up Oregon's "Visit But Don't Stay" campaign

"Neighborhood groups seek car limit for new 520 bridge"

Seattle neighborhood and environmental groups want to change the design of the future Highway 520 bridge lanes in hopes of limiting cars that enter the city.
I think they mean "... in hopes of limiting potential residents, shoppers, nightlife seekers, tourists and employers that enter the city".

For what it's worth, Mrs. Gregoire and several non-anti-people legislators are not favorably impressed.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at February 01, 2010 08:23 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Hey Seattle: you know that big road that runs right past the city? I-5? It doesn't belong to you. Thanks.

Posted by: jvon on February 1, 2010 08:39 PM
2. The Tacoma Narrows bridge used to be a huge bottleneck and impediment to traffic. Then they added CAPACITY!!!!! Now traffic flows great.

Take a lesson Seattle, from Tacoma. Take a lesson, King County from Pierce county.

Posted by: Seabecker on February 1, 2010 08:45 PM
3. I love how people who live in suburbs and exurbs believe that their ridiculous tax subsidized commutes are a basic right and desired by all.

Traffic flows great on the narrows because its tolled. Too much of the general fund of my tax dollars are wasted on unsupportable road infrastructure. The reason all these mega projects are coming at once is 20 years of Slade Gordon passing the buck on planning.

Posted by: Meanie on February 1, 2010 09:10 PM
4. I think they mean "... in hopes of limiting potential residents, shoppers, nightlife seekers, tourists and employers that enter the city".

Just the ones who arrive in cars. Really, you folks need to get out more; preferably on foot, bicycle, or mass transit.

Posted by: tensor on February 1, 2010 09:22 PM
5. Reducing capacity or hindering flow is silly. Future economic properity of the region depends on a robust transportation infrastructure. These leftist morons believe in some utopian vision that does not mesh with reality. This is just not about commuters who can bike, walk and take a bus.

The densities that are required for many of the mass transit systems to function in an unsubsidized manner do not exist in this area and probably won't in the next 100 or 200 years. Even then the costs of these systems will generally outweight the benefits.

Posted by: ducttape2 on February 1, 2010 09:39 PM
6. People don't need to go to the Cities for services or for purchases like they use to. You have Shopping Malls which provide the retail outlets for purchases of everything one needs. You now have Medical Centers and a myriad of other services that are no longer the exclusive offerings of Cities. The need to go to Cities is no longer as great as it use to be. So, if Seattle starts to restrict the free comings and goings plus, making it more expensive, it will also, begin to stagnate it's growth. In fact, because of Seattle's poor management over the many years, Seattle is far less People friendly than it use to be. Personally, I find it an ordeal to go to Seattle.

Posted by: Daniel on February 1, 2010 10:21 PM
7. #4: And how often do you get around the Puget Sound area on foot, bicycle or mass transit? You don't use your car for much of that, do you? Or do you just want OTHER people to not use their cars?

Posted by: Michele on February 1, 2010 10:49 PM
8. I've never owned a car. I commute to work via mass transit, bicycle, foot, or carpool. I live in a neighborhood (Capitol Hill, Seattle) which sees a huge influx of shoppers, clubbers, theatre patrons, and movie-goers, many of them arriving by car; the latter's emphasis on finding parking (not upon seeing us pedestrians!) creates a hazard to us on most Thursday, Friday, ans Saturday nights in OUR home. I hope such persons continue to spend $$$ in my local economy, but arriving via mass transit, which is safer for all involved.

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2010 12:19 AM
9. Wow, I see some amazing arrogance here. That is exactly the attitude that keeps my money out of Seattle. If I had my way, we'd just build a wall around it and you loons could do whatever you want in there. What irritates me is the obstructionism that stops us from building roads (MORE roads, BIGGER roads -- deal with it) through city limits.

If you don't want to drive a car, don't. If you don't think other people should drive cars, take it up with your therapist.

Posted by: jvon on February 2, 2010 01:16 AM
10. What irritates me is the obstructionism that stops us from building roads (MORE roads, BIGGER roads -- deal with it) through city limits.

Please, feel free to do that. Just without Seattle's tax money. I'm sure you won't mind the large increase in your tax burden, right? Or, do you want we, who are Seattle's taxpayers, to subsidize your fun? Socialist!

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2010 01:57 AM
11. Please, feel free to do that. Just without Seattle's tax money. I'm sure you won't mind the large increase in your tax burden, right?

How about we take the money Seattle is forcing us to pay for the choo-choo and apply that instead to the roads? If you want the choo-choo, pay for it yourself Seattle.

Where's the plan to remove the I-5 chokehold in downtown Seattle?

Posted by: SouthernRoots on February 2, 2010 06:13 AM
12. This same stupid thinking is what gave us the I-5 mess. When will people learn.

Posted by: Vince on February 2, 2010 06:59 AM
13. Seattle voters gave the liberal watermelons control last year, and this is the result. Expect delays of several more years now. Weren't we told that the taxes for a new 520 were an emergency because the bridge was going to sink, or something?

Posted by: Palouse on February 2, 2010 08:04 AM
14. #8: lol, I drive to Capitol Hill once a week for personal business; we have been doing so for the last two years and will continue until the end of this summer. The parking stinks and I'd rather not be there, and there is no way getting there on a bus from East Lake Sammamish area makes any kind of sense, timewise. Sorry, pal, but cars offer a lot of freedom for the users, and economic opportunities for the areas they travel to. I know that bothers you and other liberals, but that's life. Freedom is beautiful.

Our trips contribute to the local economy there. When we stop going, I suppose you won't care that our $$ are no longer feeding the Capitol Hill neighborhood. But if I were you, I'd be grateful for it, and realize that buses aren't practical for a lot of people, and be glad for the $$ infusion the car visits bring. Don't be so shortsighted about it, tensor.

Posted by: Michele on February 2, 2010 10:21 AM
15. Meanie @ #3 wrote: "Traffic flows great on the narrows because its tolled."

Spoken like a true illogical lefty. Traffic flows great because it is tolled!!????? Hee hee. ROFLMAO!

Traffic flows great because of added capacity. Period. The east-bound toll booths hinder traffic flow for those without G2G passes, but is still an overall improvement.

Posted by: Seabecker on February 2, 2010 10:25 AM
16. Seattle residents want me to walk to the city when the occasion calls for it. tensor, how do get to Twisp?

Posted by: Gary on February 2, 2010 11:31 AM
17. #8 Oh yeah! Whooopie! Let's all hop on a filthy Metro bus loaded with street bums and gangbangers and have a nice safe ride on up to Capitol Hill for an exciting night of bar hopping. Then, when the bars close at two in the morning, let's all stand around at the nice safe bus stop for an hour or so until the scummy bus loaded with even more street bums and gangbangers shows up to take us on a nice safe ride home. NO THANKS! I will drive my car, and you can rest assured that I will do my best to avoid running over you. That is unless you happen to be wearing black while jay walking which 97 percent of Seattle residents seem to do. In that case, I can't make any promises. ; )

Posted by: Jack on February 2, 2010 12:07 PM
18. #9--If we build a big wall around it, it would just fill up with water--oh wait.......

Posted by: Camille on February 2, 2010 04:35 PM
19. the dog and pony show continues !!

Posted by: Laurie on February 2, 2010 06:48 PM
20. If you want the choo-choo, pay for it yourself Seattle.

We already did. It's called "sub-area equity". Feel free to educate yourself on that.

Sorry, pal, but cars offer a lot of freedom for the users, and economic opportunities for the areas they travel to.

Which "freedom" was heavily subsidized, by taxpayers who'll never ever see, let alone use, the highways paved with their money. I know you love your socialism...

NO THANKS! I will drive my car, and you can rest assured that I will do my best to avoid running over you.

So, drinking and driving is a great plan? Yea personal responsibility! Take a cab.

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2010 11:28 PM
21. Tensor,

What roads were paid for not with gas taxes? You do know that the vast majority of roads in the city - and pretty much 100% of the highways and interstates - were paid by tolls and gas taxes? Basically use taxes?

How about tolls and use taxes covering, say, 80% of the operational costs of the train? How about even covering 50% of the construction costs?

And you know that you benefit immensely from the existence of roads, even if you don't drive - how else does the police or fire department get to your place, your groceries delivered to your local QFC, or your shoes to your local department store? Heck, ever ride a bus?

I guess you'd like the fire department, Medic One, and police to respond on bikes, Metro, or Link Light Rail, right?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on February 2, 2010 11:44 PM
22. 20. Who said anything about drinking and driving? Ever hear the term designated driver? Oh, that's right...you've never owned a car so you're clueless.

Posted by: Jack on February 3, 2010 07:30 AM
23. Mike,

Too bad your own retort is simply name calling. So sad. I guess when you have nothing to say you stoop to the level of a child. But what to expect from you...

And you're woefully ignorant as well, because the 2008 SDOT Annual Report shows my statement is correct: a total of $23.7 million spent on road maintenance, and gas taxes alone (not including vehicle excise taxes, parking receipts, etc) were $14.2 million, meaning that 60% of the funds spent on roads came from gas taxes alone. Add in the millions paid by cars for parking and tabs and other city-based excise taxes and you'll find that 70% of the road maintenance budget is paid by user fees of cars.

So how much of bus and light rail costs are paid by user fees? Is it even beyond 20%?

Go away mike, until you have a clue...

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on February 3, 2010 02:23 PM
24. Mike,

You show your ignorance. Where did I say 100%? Apparently you fail basic reading comprehension...

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on February 3, 2010 10:57 PM
25. Oh, and Mike?

About 70% of the construction and maintenance costs of highways in the U.S. are covered through user fees (net of collection costs), primarily gasoline taxes collected by the federal government and state and local governments, and to a much lesser extent tolls collected on toll roads and bridges.

Source.

What portion of public transit - buses and trains - are covered by user fees? Care to answer that? Or will you and your fellow leftists continue screaming about the subsidy of our roads (primarily paid for by user fees) and ignore the subsidies of public transit (overwhelmingly paid for by general taxes)?

Does it hurt to be that ignorant and hypocritical? Can you really see your tonsils from below?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on February 4, 2010 11:19 AM
26. @27 So we're supposed to believe your statistic that's off on what SDOT spends by almost ten times? SDOT's budget was $205.7 million in 2008 according to your link. Gas tax only covered $14 million.

Posted by: kurisu on February 5, 2010 09:11 PM
27. From your own source - learn to read: "However, local contributions are overwhelmingly from sources other than user fees.[35] The portion of the user fees spent on highways themselves covers about 57% of costs, as approximately one-sixth of the user fees are diverted to other programs, prominently including mass transit"

Posted by: kurisu on February 5, 2010 09:15 PM
28. Kurisu,

The SDOT does a lot more than just road maintenance (they cover seawall maintenance, for example). The gas tax brings in 60% of the funds spent on roads, meaning roads are mainly funded by user fees.

And user fees cover 57% of the costs of highways, even though 1/6th is diverted to other programs. Do the math - add that 1/6th back in and you have 68% of the funding needed for highways. Again, a pretty big majority of the funding, if it wasn't diverted.

And how about answering the question I've asked and is always ignored: how much of the cost of transit is covered by user fees? Care to answer that? Or do you join the chorus of other leftists here about the evil "subsidies" of roads and ignore the massively larger subsidies of mass transit?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on February 5, 2010 10:48 PM
29. transit fail!
as predicted, wallace's 'vision line' is the worst option for ridership!

what do you bet he keeps pushing for it (at kemper's 'request')anyway, only to waste our tax dollars?

Posted by: mike on February 8, 2010 10:41 PM
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